Wiring/replacement pots advice?

[Max Riffage]

Sorry if this has been done to death already, but I did have a good search around first!
This is how the wiring looks on my '95 Standard. A bit surprised that the pots are blank - I thought they would have numbers or "Gibson" on them?




I just got it last week and all the pots and the switch have crackling issues. Obviously I'm going to try some switch cleaner and lube, but if this doesn't sort everything, I might change them.

Does anyone have (informed) opinions on;

CTS, Callaham cryo-treated, Bourns low-friction?

Straight linear vs 70/30 or 60/40 log pots?

Also, I'm intending to fit a push-pull for out-of-phase. Has anyone tried this in combination with a 50s wiring style?

I'd like to preserve the tonal balance throughout the range of the volume pot so, which caps? Bumblebee, Sprague, Sozo, whatever?

I haven't had the pups out yet, but I'm presuming they are standard 490s or whatever.

[bfcg]

RS (hillbilly) and Jonsey both sell top of the line stuff and they know all that there is to know about the products that they sell. Either of these guys could hook you up with the proper components and the best customer support in the industry.

[FF_Pedals]

Go to the home page here and find the forum for Tonefreaks. You can read up on everything there. RS have the best pots (custom CTS). Get paper in oil PIO caps between 0.01uF-0.022uF for the neck and 0.015-0.022uF for the bridge. Put the push-pull for one of the tone pots.

[jonesy]

Lot's of discussion and tips here if you want to read up first, it may help you decide what you need?
Wiring Library

[Max Riffage]

Originally Posted by FF_Pedals

Go to the home page here and find the forum for Tonefreaks. You can read up on everything there. RS have the best pots (custom CTS). Get paper in oil PIO caps between 0.01uF-0.022uF for the neck and 0.015-0.022uF for the bridge. Put the push-pull for one of the tone pots.

Cheers FF!

RS in the UK don't seem to stock CTS pots, so I guess I'll have to hunt them down somewhere else.

[Luckyhands]

Max, they're referring to RS guitarworks, not RS the UK electrical chain!

RSGuitarworks - RS Guitarworks Online Store

[Max Riffage]

Originally Posted by jonesy

Lot's of discussion and tips here if you want to read up first, it may help you decide what you need?
Wiring Library

I did two days of reading before I came up with those questions! I thought they were pretty specific, but I'll try again.......

Pots - Callaham seems to think there's an audible difference with cryo CTS - but then, he's selling them. Anyone tried them?

Expensive caps - I can understand how the capacitance medium might affect the tone. However, I'm sceptical as to how, for example, a 15 dollar oil and paper one will sound better than a 15 cent one. Has anyone done a proper back-to-back, checking values with a bridge meter and some way of removing subjectivity (ref tone and scope, blind test etc)?

50s wiring - doesn't look much different to modern, only that the cap seems to be after the pot in the chain. Will this hold the full tonal spectrum through the full range of the pot? It seems rather simple compared to other concepts. I've seen treble-bleed setups on a Tele and that has this (pic below) across the vol pot.

[Max Riffage]

Originally Posted by Luckyhands

Max, they're referring to RS guitarworks, not RS the UK electrical chain!

RSGuitarworks - RS Guitarworks Online Store

Oh, I see. Thanks for the heads up!

[landsharkey]

Pots - Callaham seems to think there's an audible difference with cryo CTS - but then, he's selling them. Anyone tried them?

Is this what you're referring to? Not any actual science proven here.

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by Max Riffage

I did two days of reading before I came up with those questions! I thought they were pretty specific, but I'll try again.......

Pots - Callaham seems to think there's an audible difference with cryo CTS - but then, he's selling them. Anyone tried them?

Expensive caps - I can understand how the capacitance medium might affect the tone. However, I'm sceptical as to how, for example, a 15 dollar oil and paper one will sound better than a 15 cent one. Has anyone done a proper back-to-back, checking values with a bridge meter and some way of removing subjectivity (ref tone and scope, blind test etc)?

50s wiring - doesn't look much different to modern, only that the cap seems to be after the pot in the chain. Will this hold the full tonal spectrum through the full range of the pot? It seems rather simple compared to other concepts. I've seen treble-bleed setups on a Tele and that has this (pic below) across the vol pot.

Hmmm, Maybe You better go back and do some more studying then because the answers to all your questions are right there in Tone Freaks. Some things you will just have to try out on your own to know for sure rather than relying on the opinions of others. Tone is very subjective.

[Max Riffage]

Originally Posted by landsharkey

Is this what you're referring to? Not any actual science proven here.

Yeah, that's the fellas.

Cryo-treated valves/tubes seem to be popular and get good reviews, but that's a completely different set of circumstances to a passive pot.

The reason I ask this stuff about caps and alike, is conversations I've had with my Dad. He was a TV tech (trained in the 50s) and has played since the early 60s. He's built amps and now retired, works part-time in a music shop repairing amps and electronics. So he knows his valves and electronic theory inside out.

Every time I mention NOS mustard caps, bumblebees, spragues, cryo-pots, or whatever, he gives me the same unimpressed look. He doesn't really think these things can significantly affect the sound in a passive circuit. He's of the opinion that high-grade audio caps are for amplified and speaker circuits.

When we were discussing building a valve amp, I was banging on about mustard caps and he said: if it's in an amplified part of the signal path, fine, use the old-skool stuff. But elsewhere, just a good quality modern cap that'll be consistent, not dry out or burst, will do the job and have zero influence on the tone.

[Max Riffage]

Originally Posted by jonesy

Hmmm, Maybe You better go back and do some more studying then because the answers to all your questions are right there in Tone Freaks. Some things you will just have to try out on your own to know for sure rather than relying on the opinions of others. Tone is very subjective.

Sorry dude, I was just asking for quick opinions and shooting the breeze. I didn't realise it was a challenge quest vibe. Is there a way I can port my Playstation into here?

I've been on a forum (unrelated to guitars or music) for 6 years and it does get irritating when noobs come along and start up a subject that's been rubbed in the ground.

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by Max Riffage

Sorry dude, I was just asking for quick opinions and shooting the breeze. I didn't realise it was a challenge quest vibe. Is there a way I can post my Playstation into here?

I've been on a forum (unrelated to guitars or music) for 6 years and it does get irritating when noobs come along and start up a subject that's been rubbed in the ground.

Every body always wants quick answers because they don't really want to put the time in tinkering and finding out for themselves.

You asked about RS pots (I think?) they are CTS pots with custom taper, but you will have no idea how they sound unless you try one. I use the CTS analog pots and am very happy with them.

You asked the difference between a $15 tone cap vs a .15 cent one, how will you know unless you actually compare the two with your own ears?

You also asked the difference between 50's and modern wiring, on 50's the caps go to switch lead on volume pot and on modern they go to the pu lead. Again unless you try this on you own guitar and compare the two how will you actually know which you prefer and it will vary from guitar to guitar. Modern is more compressed and a bit warmer and 50's is a little more open with more highs.

Volume bleed kits can be used on any guitars not just Tele's, they keep volume crisp at any level vs it getting muddy as it is turned down. They can be used with modern wiring on LP's but not needed on 50's style wiring.

Now do you really know anymore than you did before???

If you want to learn how to swim you can read books about it, talk to other people about swimming but you really will have no idea what it is like until you get in the water.

You kind of lost me with the Play station remark, but did give an indication of your age.

I take Tone serious as it is my business and I am always here to help out, and I do not appreciate "flip-pent" remarks from noobies.

peace, jonesy

[Max Riffage]

Originally Posted by jonesy

Every body always wants quick answers because they don't really want to put the time in tinkering and finding out for themselves.

You asked about RS pots (I think?) they are CTS pots with custom taper, but you will have no idea how they sound unless you try one. I use the CTS analog pots and am very happy with them.

You asked the difference between a $15 tone cap vs a .15 cent one, how will you know unless you actually compare the two with your own ears?

You also asked the difference between 50's and modern wiring, on 50's the caps go to switch lead on volume pot and on modern they go to the pu lead. Again unless you try this on you own guitar and compare the two how will you actually know which you prefer and it will vary from guitar to guitar. Modern is more compressed and a bit warmer and 50's is a little more open with more highs.

Volume bleed kits can be used on any guitars not just Tele's, they keep volume crisp at any level vs it getting muddy as it is turned down. They can be used with modern wiring on LP's but not needed on 50's style wiring.

Now do you really know anymore than you did before???

If you want to learn how to swim you can read books about it, talk to other people about swimming but you really will have no idea what it is like until you get in the water.

You kind of lost me with the Play station remark, but did give an indication of your age.

I take Tone serious as it is my business and I am always here to help out, and I do not appreciate "flip-pent" remarks from noobies.

peace, jonesy

I'm actually 43 and I've playing guitar since 1975. If you'd taken the time to look at my profile or intro on the noobs section you'd know that, but then you probabaly didn't have time?

I meant to say "port" my playstation, not post, so my hilarious gag went a bit flat on me due to a typo.

Listen dude, it's a forum, not wikiguitarpediea or a library.

I come here, hopefully, to discuss guitars with like-minded others. If you're saying we can't discuss something that's already been done, then considering it's a narrow subject, your forum would be dead inside two years. Everything will have been said.

If you don't want to offer advice or opinion, then just don't. As it stands, you have now offered your opinion on some of my questions, so I genuinely thank you for that.

I have actually read a lot more than you think - your thread on switching back to modern on your LPS was very interesting, for example. Now that I've read it, I can point others with similar questions to it, but I'll probably offer my summary so they don't have to read every word if they don't have the time. To me that's how a forum community works.

Thanks for your help anyway.

[jonesy]

Max,

It's all good bro, you would not believe how any times I have answered the same old questions over and over again without hesitation, so sorry if I came off a bit cross with you.

I guess my Philosophy is give a man a fish and feed him for a day teach him how to fish and he is set for life. That is why I asked you to go study because I do want you to learn.

It is amazing nowadays all the information available compared to when I was trying to learn about this wiring stuff. Tinkering has always been something that I have liked to do. I will be 49 on the 29th of this month, and I still have my first set of needle nose pliers and wire cutters from when I was about 12 . I remember tearing apart an old radio (unplugged) and I got the heck shocked out of me by a big capacitor and wondered hey how did that happen.

I really hope you try out a few things of your own so you can hear with your own ears and then post up your results here at MLPF.

All the best to you and yours,
peace, jonesy

[landsharkey]

Cryo-treated valves/tubes seem to be popular and get good reviews, but that's a completely different set of circumstances to a passive pot.

CTS likely publishes data on their components versus temperature and would be suprised if they design with no regard for temperature hysteresis or whatever parameter is claimed to be improved by cyro. No details were given other than a 18% increase in output (which could mean 18% +18%/-36% as no measurement error was specified). Without test data or graphs showing the change it's hard to believe. If this treatment does have a positive effect how can you be sure the parts you get were processed this way? And ask the same questions for any tube, cable, etc that claims to have a special treatment.
What is the cost difference between a normal and treated component?

[landsharkey]

Here's a quote I found -

"
From Rich:

This has been discussed multiple times in multiple forums. Usually, the discussion dies down quickly when someone with materials engineering experience provides some science. Bottom line is that cryogenic treatment will provide no benefit to the materials used in tubes (kinetics (changes) slow down exponentially as temperature decreases).

Cryogenic treatment makes sense for certain steels, when the desire is to induce more hardness (steels go through a martensitic transition at low temperatures).

Rich

(A materials engineer in a previous life, with a PhD in Nuclear materials from MIT)...
"

[Max Riffage]

Originally Posted by jonesy

Max,

It's all good bro, you would not believe how any times I have answered the same old questions over and over again without hesitation, so sorry if I came off a bit cross with you.

I guess my Philosophy is give a man a fish and feed him for a day teach him how to fish and he is set for life. That is why I asked you to go study because I do want you to learn.

It is amazing nowadays all the information available compared to when I was trying to learn about this wiring stuff. Tinkering has always been something that I have liked to do. I will be 49 on the 29th of this month, and I still have my first set of needle nose pliers and wire cutters from when I was about 12 . I remember tearing apart an old radio (unplugged) and I got the heck shocked out of me by a big capacitor and wondered hey how did that happen.

I really hope you try out a few things of your own so you can hear with your own ears and then post up your results here at MLPF.

All the best to you and yours,
peace, jonesy

Hey, no problem man. Opinions are what forums are all about.

I'm gonna get some spragues and PIO russian caps from Ebay and try them out.

I like a bit of a tinker myself, but more out of fiscal necessity! I'm happy to change parts, do a fret job or fit a nut, but big stuff I leave to the experts. I have a Strat which got a bit wrecked when I toured it for two years, then a rubbish tech rounded the truss rod adjuster for me. I've done quite a bit of works on that myself (pups, LSR nut, locking machines, paint job in progress), but really only because I couldn't afford to get everything done by a luthier.

[Max Riffage]

Originally Posted by landsharkey

CTS likely publishes data on their components versus temperature and would be suprised if they design with no regard for temperature hysteresis or whatever parameter is claimed to be improved by cyro. No details were given other than a 18% increase in output (which could mean 18% +18%/-36% as no measurement error was specified). Without test data or graphs showing the change it's hard to believe. If this treatment does have a positive effect how can you be sure the parts you get were processed this way? And ask the same questions for any tube, cable, etc that claims to have a special treatment.
What is the cost difference between a normal and treated component?

Callaham want $4.95 for a cryo CTS Pot 250k Split Shaft which is actually $1 cheaper than RS, so I don't suppose it can do any harm.

These guys have a full page in Guitarist mag (UK) ever month.

There's also this Guitarist mag review.

The two may be financially inter-related!

[Max Riffage]

Originally Posted by landsharkey

Here's a quote I found -

"
From Rich:

This has been discussed multiple times in multiple forums. Usually, the discussion dies down quickly when someone with materials engineering experience provides some science. Bottom line is that cryogenic treatment will provide no benefit to the materials used in tubes (kinetics (changes) slow down exponentially as temperature decreases).

Cryogenic treatment makes sense for certain steels, when the desire is to induce more hardness (steels go through a martensitic transition at low temperatures).

Rich

(A materials engineer in a previous life, with a PhD in Nuclear materials from MIT)...
"

Thanks for that - most interesting.

When I asked my Dad he said - I'm not a metallurgist, but it all sounds like bollocks to me. With valves you can test them and use ones closest to the performance spec and each other, then bias them correctly and that's about it.

[landsharkey]

Callaham want $4.95 for a cryo CTS Pot 250k Split Shaft which is actually $1 cheaper than RS, so I don't suppose it can do any harm.

These guys have a full page in Guitarist mag (UK) ever month.

There's also this Guitarist mag review.

The two may be financially inter-related!

Once again there's plenty of claims made but no test data shown to prove them. Soaking to -312 deg. F would be an expensive process seriously doubt they do this. Their "test reports" don't list any real test equipment - purely subjective.