Rock Bands with orchestras

[thedonal]

Hey,

I was watching Steve Vai's Visual Sound Theories the other day and it got me wondering how many other good examples of rock music and orchestra there are.

VST is an example of where the arrangements are really well written to use the orchestra instead of Vai's guitars in places and adds an aural dimension to his already complex music.

Metallica S&M- largely wasted opportunity as many of the arrangements just don't really add much to the music- some are quite bland. Also, the band are pretty much playing the same thing in most cases, instead of handing some of the work to the orchestra. Ktulu was seriously disappointing as a track with the most potential for drama and dynamics. One came off well though.

Dream Theater- Score- Much better- some fantastic stuff here- particularly 6 Degress of Inner turbulence and Metropolis.

Within Temptation- Black Symphony. Some really epic stuff, but not always top notch.

What other stuff is there about that's worth listening to?

[huw]

Deep Purple's Concerto for Group & Orchestra always springs to mind, but there are better examples. If you like prog rock there are a few: Jethro Tull's Minstrel in the Gallery album has loads of orchestra on it; ELP's Works vol 1 (particularly the track Pirates, a personal favourite).
Oh and there's that Dave Gilmour DVD, Live in Gdansk with the Baltic Philharmonic Orchestra. All good fun.

[El_Greco]

Rage did a pretty good Job with the phil. orchestra of Prague if I rememember correctly.

[checkedgoldtop]

Orchestras usually take the raw feeling out of bands IMHO.

[thedonal]

They can also add to the drama and power.

Cheers for the suggestions guys!

[benjammin420]

didnt Kiss do a live album with a symphony?

[El_Greco]

YouTube - Yngwie Malmsteen - Icarus Dream Fanfare with Orchestra

YouTube - Yngwie Malmsteen - Icarus Dream Fanfare with Orchestra

[thedonal]

Cheers, but Malmsteen doesn't really do that much for me. He's very good 'n'that. Worth the occasional listen, but that's about it.

I must get the David Gilmour DVD soon- sort of shocked at myself that I haven't already.

But I wasn't majorly fussed with On An Island. It's good and all, but it hasn't captured me yet. I sort of find some of the songs a bit meandering and aimless- uninspiring. Perhaps that's what's held me from the BUY button on Play!

[MineGoesTo11]

I'd like to check out Trans Siberian Orchestra sometime.

[ckiz]

Originally Posted by thedonal

Metallica S&M- largely wasted opportunity as many of the arrangements just don't really add much to the music- some are quite bland. Also, the band are pretty much playing the same thing in most cases, instead of handing some of the work to the orchestra. Ktulu was seriously disappointing as a track with the most potential for drama and dynamics. One came off well though.

I'd strongly, but respectfully, disagree with that. I thought that the Metallica / San Francisco symphony was brilliant.

You mentioned disappointment that the band plays the songs as they always had. I'm curious as to what your expectation was? I didn't really expect them to rearrange the songs or reinvent the mousetrap so to speak, just take the "sonic footprint" for their compositions and blend it with the orchestra's interpretation.

I thought it was very ballsy for Metallica to take on the project to begin with. Metal heads aren't known as a fan base that's particularly receptive to change or venturing outside the comfort zone. While Metallica has always been a band to push the boundaries of people's expectations, it's still a gutsy move for the biggest metal band in the world to collaborate with a symphony. Also, Michael Kamen was very widely regarded as one of the two or three most highly regarded composers / arrangers in the world prior to his passing.

Tracks such as "Thing That Should Not Be", "Bleeding Me", "For Whom The Bell Tolls", "Outlaw Torn", "One", and "Battery" have such a heightened sense of depth and complexity to them with the orchestral arrangement. The songs take on a feel of grandiosity or "epicness". "For Whom The Bell Tolls" really nails that grandiosity for me with the horn accompaniments during the instrumental front end of the song.

When I recommend this album to people, I suggest that they try not to listen to it as a "Metallica album", per se. Rather than hearing Metallica and the symphony as performing side-by-side, try to listen to it as a performance from a single, cohesive unit.

If it really wasn't your cup of tea, I can dig that. I just think that it's an album that requires the listener to consciously re-calibrate their ears in order to appreciate the complexity of what's going on. Try to check out some of the video from that performance as well...the physicality of the orchestral musicians trying to keep up with Metallica on a song like "Battery" is really something.

[Lurcher]

I used to enjoy Barclay James Harvest. Saw them twice with the EMI orchestra (Weeley festival and Romford) and once in a little pub venue without. Both versions were great but with the orchestra they had so many more dimensions.

[thedonal]

Originally Posted by ckiz

I'd strongly, but respectfully, disagree with that. I thought that the Metallica / San Francisco symphony was brilliant.

You mentioned disappointment that the band plays the songs as they always had. I'm curious as to what your expectation was? I didn't really expect them to rearrange the songs or reinvent the mousetrap so to speak, just take the "sonic footprint" for their compositions and blend it with the orchestra's interpretation.

I thought it was very ballsy for Metallica to take on the project to begin with. Metal heads aren't known as a fan base that's particularly receptive to change or venturing outside the comfort zone. While Metallica has always been a band to push the boundaries of people's expectations, it's still a gutsy move for the biggest metal band in the world to collaborate with a symphony. Also, Michael Kamen was very widely regarded as one of the two or three most highly regarded composers / arrangers in the world prior to his passing.

Tracks such as "Thing That Should Not Be", "Bleeding Me", "For Whom The Bell Tolls", "Outlaw Torn", "One", and "Battery" have such a heightened sense of depth and complexity to them with the orchestral arrangement. The songs take on a feel of grandiosity or "epicness". "For Whom The Bell Tolls" really nails that grandiosity for me with the horn accompaniments during the instrumental front end of the song.

When I recommend this album to people, I suggest that they try not to listen to it as a "Metallica album", per se. Rather than hearing Metallica and the symphony as performing side-by-side, try to listen to it as a performance from a single, cohesive unit.

If it really wasn't your cup of tea, I can dig that. I just think that it's an album that requires the listener to consciously re-calibrate their ears in order to appreciate the complexity of what's going on. Try to check out some of the video from that performance as well...the physicality of the orchestral musicians trying to keep up with Metallica on a song like "Battery" is really something.

I understand your comments ckiz. I have the DVD and have watched it a few times. I just feel that there is so much potential, musically, in some of those songs that could be unlocked with an orchestra.

Ktulu for instance. The original track is a fantastic, dynamic building of tension and terror- very much imitating the original story it's based on. The orchestrated score, in my opinion does little to enhance that- there is so much tonal potential in this track to really hammer the terror of a Lovecraft story. In fact, I think more discord in the music would have served the tune well. In some ways, I felt that the orchestra actually flattened some of that tension out. This is mainly why I was disappointed.

I realise that Michael Kamen is a fantastic artist in his own right- having written numerous soundtracks and arranged orchestration to some of my favourite albums (Pink Floyd were served well here with both The Wall and The Final Cut). I respect that- I just feel that he could have done a better job in Metallica's case.

As for the band giving some of their parts over to the orchestra- yes that's a large ask in some ways. In some ways, it's not. It worked so well for Dream Theater- especially during 6 Degrees of Inner Turbulence on the Score DVD/CD.

As in my original thread, One is a song that came out very well here. Battery was also good. Of course, the Morricone opener sounded gorgeous and really set the tone.

Unforgiven was a sad omission though- that would have benefitted really well from this concert.

I agree that the orchestra added grandiosity to the band- this was, I would think, one of the main points. It does sound rather epic.

I don't think the whole thing was bad in any way- it could just have been better. Metallica's music can be complex and would suit an orchestral arrangement in this respect.

Incidentally, the 5.1 mix really improves definition and dynamics over the stereo mix if you have an AV setup. Though I'm sure it still doesn't touch being there. I guess if I'd have gone to the show, I'd probably feel different about it.

[thedonal]

Originally Posted by Lurcher

I used to enjoy Barclay James Harvest. Saw them twice with the EMI orchestra (Weeley festival and Romford) and once in a little pub venue without. Both versions were great but with the orchestra they had so many more dimensions.

I remember, after hearing the song on the radio as a teenager, having a discussion with an art teacher who couldn't work out whether Mockingbird was a really great or a truly terrible song!

I liked it- but haven't heard the song since, or anything else by BJH. I must visit them on youtube soon!

[Hector Arcadius]

Scorpions & Berliner Philarmoniker - Moment of glory

In my opinion, it's the best collaboration of a rock band with a philarmonic orchestra, ever. They did not use the orchsestra to add some dimention to the songs, they really re-wrote the songs to incorporate both side of music into them. simply stunning! Check the CD / DVD and pay extra attention to the instrumental suite.

Compared to that, the S&M is simply down-letting. In my opinion, they just replayed the songs with the orchestra adding a richer dimention to the sound and that was all. Just my opinion though.

And as a single song in an album, I strongly recommend that you check ''Stargazer'', by Rainbow (the album is ''Rainbow Rising''). Most probably, the best hard rock song of all time.

[ledlover01]

page and plant used one for their tour(s) in the 1990s

[SludgeBurns]

+1 for Metallica S&M

James was really on his game that night with his vocals.

Did anyone watch the behind the scenes footage? How about the harp player? I thought it was hilarious how some of the snooty members of the orchestra were really put off about the idea of accompanying a heavy metal band while the harp player was a badass dude and really got into it.

[thedonal]

Originally Posted by ledlover01

page and plant used one for their tour(s) in the 1990s

Yeah- the No Quarter album/DVD is amazing. I think, to a large degree, we have Jonesy to thank for the original arrangements (the strings on Rain Song and Since I've Been Loving You are gorgeous), but the Egyptian contingency really made the show!

Jimmy's sound on that was great too. Especially on Thank You, where there was delay before distortion- a great sound.

[Kezia]

What about KISS Symphony? Despite the fact that they used Thayer instead of the real Spaceman himself...

[checkedgoldtop]

Originally Posted by thedonal

They can also add to the drama and power.

Cheers for the suggestions guys!

Here's a great one.

YouTube - Aerosmith - Dream On (live symphony) Legendado

YouTube - Aerosmith - Dream On (live symphony) Legendado

[jimmypage24]

YouTube - Mark Knopfler - Brothers in Arms

YouTube - Mark Knopfler - Brothers in Arms

[checkedgoldtop]

Originally Posted by jimmypage24

YouTube - Mark Knopfler - Brothers in Arms

Mark Knopfler could perform an armpit fart and I would still be amazed at his talent.

[thedonal]

Originally Posted by jimmypage24

YouTube - Mark Knopfler - Brothers in Arms

Good call. That inspired me to pick my BB up and jam along.

It's a lovely song to jam out- after the clip finished, I continued noodling. It's a great one for finding those sweet sounds with the volume and tone. And not use a pick, for a change!

It's a Dire Straits favourite for me. And another moment where a recognised Strat major excels on a Les Paul. Were those Vox amps in the background? So he's dropped Soldano?

I think that DVD is going to be high on the list, though I'm not so keen on Knopfler's solo stuff...

[The_Sentry]

I liked the S&M concert by Metallica! This is one of my favorite songs by them! (And it was an exclusive arrangement for that show!)

YouTube - Metallica S&M live-No Leaf Clover

YouTube - Metallica S&M live-No Leaf Clover

[DagerOne]

November Rain?

(Oh come on, someone was going to say it)

[The_Sentry]

Originally Posted by DagerOne

November Rain?

(Oh come on, someone was going to say it)

It won't be me!

[dylan.rocks.all.nite.long]

Originally Posted by MineGoesTo11

I'd like to check out Trans Siberian Orchestra sometime.

possibly one of the best live bands ever...

[DagerOne]

Originally Posted by The_Sentry

It won't be me!

Well, I thought if I went ahead and said it, it might circumvent the possibility of someone coming in here and saying "OMFG!!!11! All theez posts and no 1 talks about the gr8est guitarist in the world on 'November Rain'?!?!"

(or something similar...Stephanie Seymour was hot, admittedly)

[ckiz]

Originally Posted by Hector Arcadius

Compared to that, the S&M is simply down-letting. In my opinion, they just replayed the songs with the orchestra adding a richer dimention to the sound and that was all. Just my opinion though.

This is in no way sarcastic or a loaded comment - what was your expectation with respect to how the project was going to work, or perhaps a better question would be what specifically would you have preferred they done differently?

From my perspective, there's only so much tweaking you can do to the original song before it's no longer the original song. From the get go, I'm not sure what is a realistic expectation beyond the symphony "enhancing" or supplementing the original tune.

[ckiz]

Originally Posted by thedonal

I understand your comments ckiz. I have the DVD and have watched it a few times. I just feel that there is so much potential, musically, in some of those songs that could be unlocked with an orchestra.

Ktulu for instance. The original track is a fantastic, dynamic building of tension and terror- very much imitating the original story it's based on. The orchestrated score, in my opinion does little to enhance that- there is so much tonal potential in this track to really hammer the terror of a Lovecraft story. In fact, I think more discord in the music would have served the tune well. In some ways, I felt that the orchestra actually flattened some of that tension out. This is mainly why I was disappointed.

As in my original thread, One is a song that came out very well here. Battery was also good. Of course, the Morricone opener sounded gorgeous and really set the tone.

Unforgiven was a sad omission though- that would have benefitted really well from this concert.

I agree that the orchestra added grandiosity to the band- this was, I would think, one of the main points. It does sound rather epic.

I don't think the whole thing was bad in any way- it could just have been better. Metallica's music can be complex and would suit an orchestral arrangement in this respect.

Cliff Burton was big into classical music and I think that's reflected in the complexity and grandiosity of their early albums.

While I wouldn't personally say that Ktulu was a disappointment, I would agree that it did come up a little bit short of what its capabilities may have been. It was good, not great, but also not a disappointment either.

If I have one criticism of the album, there are a few songs on the album that are head scratchers with respect to being included in the set list. "Fuel", "Until It Sleeps", and "Sad But True" just don't seem like they are conducive to that medium. And since none of those songs are one on the bands mega-hits, like "Enter Sandman", I thought they could have left it out in favor of songs that worked better in that setting. I would have loved to see what they would have done with "Creeping Death" for example.

Personally, I have a tremendous amount of respect for artists who really stretch out and take chances - even when they come up short or even fail. That's what leads to growth as an artist and the occasional masterpiece.