Some thoughts on the River jams, and a favor to ask

[The_Sentry]

Hey guys...

You know...a lot of you are putting down some really, really nice stuff over these tracks River is floating out there. But can y'all do me a favor?

Please don't tell me "they suck" before I even get a chance to listen to them! If they suck...let the listener decide. They might not hear the same things you do. It's like the cook at Waffle House wiping the flatware under her hairy armpit in your sight before the table is set.

I'm glad to see these tracks! Please...STAND BEHIND YOUR WORK! It's a lot better than most of you are making it out to be! Be PROUD of what you're doing here!

(And yeah...you can tell me to stick it...but I'm telling most of YOU it's a hell of lot BETTER, and you're a HELL of a lot better than what you're giving yourselves credit for! So none of us are bloody Gary Moore, Eric Clapton or Paul Gilbert! SO F*&(ing what!! I like this stuff....and if you don't like that, YOU can stick it where the sun don't shine! MLP ROCKS!)

[LPV]

Just insecurity about my playing coming off as excessive humility in my case. I'll work on it.

[Cookie-boy]

There is nothing like playing to people to sharpen up your game. Anyone who posts on here will benefit.

[Leumas]

Agreed. I understand feeling like something's not good enough, or undone, but don't try and qualify, or rather disqualify your work before we hear it. If it's your first time recording, say so! If it's your first time electric, or using a scale, or anything let us know...but don't shit on yourself. You're attaching a negative idea to a wholly positive endeavor.

Rock and roll, friends!

[L60N]

Where are we finding these River tracks anyway? I feel the need to have a bash...

"USE THE BLOODY SEARCH FUNCTION!!!!"

Ok I will

Im not talking to myself by the way

Yes you are

wtf??

[jomo]

I'd rather say I suck and people thing I'm wrong, then saying "this proves I'm a real guitarist" or what ever that punk ass Tool kid said, and look like a total dumb ass. Especially when I know there are people that play circles around me on here.
My pet peeves are threads that I click and see a solid foot of text and think, "there's no way I have time to read that" and I hit the back button.
(Obviously this isn't one of those, I'm posting ain't I?)

[kernelofwisdom]

I agree with Sentry, but I understand the reasoning.

So just let it fly and everyone will assume all normal disclaimers apply:

1. recovering from injury
2. drunk
3. bad recording
4. guitar not set up
5. amp not set up
6. pedals not set up
7. cord not set up
8. EMF noise coming through your rig
9. wrong pick
10. strings old

etc!

They've all been really good and a lot of fun to listen to and watch! Good stuff!

[Cookie-boy]

I'm glad my one's top of the list!!!!

[The_Sentry]

It's kinda like fixing someone's car...and then telling them "Hey...I did a really crappy job on this, just so you know..."

[WhippingPost]

Originally Posted by The_Sentry

"Hey...I did a really crappy job on this, just so you know..."

There's nothing wrong with being truthful! My personal favorite between my boss and I is:

"I fixed it." *Great, what was the problem?* "I'm not really sure, but it's working fine now." *So what did you do?* "I whacked it with a hammer." *A Hammer?* "Yep. [Gesturing with hands] A big one."

I think part of it is just insecurity. You're posting your work up for people to review and critique, so it's easy to be a little apprehensive. Sometimes I play something, and on playback it's so much better than what I thought it would be. Sometimes it's much, much worse. I know that the more I try to correct a song, the more I lose of the original feel, so I just post them up, warts and all. It's a little scary to see what the comments will be, or worse if there will be any comments at all.

[Quill]

Originally Posted by The_Sentry

Hey guys...

You know...a lot of you are putting down some really, really nice stuff over these tracks River is floating out there. But can y'all do me a favor?

Please don't tell me "they suck" before I even get a chance to listen to them! If they suck...let the listener decide. They might not hear the same things you do.

Very good post, Sentry. It needed to be said. I'd like to suggest pushing it one more step.

As players: play. As listening players: do not decide.

I think as players and growing artists, we are always on the look-out for new colours for our palettes, new scenes to run through our imaginations, different perspectives and a new paintbrush, too. "Cool, this brush will let me make those new lines I wanted to do the other day! Into the box it goes!" - or - "Hm; don't see a use for this one; no room in the box for this." Not everything one sees or hears is going to fit with what one has already collected, so there is a process of selection going on, all the time. Problem is, notions of "value" and "usefulness", already pretty mixed-up ideas to begin with, can get all mixed up with each other.

A process of choosing can start out sounding like this:

I "want" this, I "don't want" that.

Lines in the mind can be fuzzy, and it can seem indistinct from this:

I "like" this, I "don't like" that.

Doesn't take long before it all mushes together and becomes:

This is "good", that is "not good".

But language is self-reflexive - it points in two directions, always, at the object that is spoken about, but also at the speaker. And it goes in circles, too. Everyone knows this, I'm only trying to draw it out. When the artist gives in to all that fuzzy-mindedness, gets lazy, and lets the "good"/"not good" determiner (or "sucks"/"doesn't suck", to keep with the language most are using) to stand in for the "in"/"out" determiner of choice as they look around for the stuff they need, when it comes time to produce - well, then the same determiner is applied to the thing that is made. "This thing I made is good!" - or - "This thing I made is not good!"

Very bad thing, for any creative type.

If you are an artist, in your heart - and qualifications about "how much of an artist" one is, or might be, would really be out of place, inside this point I'd like to make - it is neither "good", nor is it "not good". It is, and that's all.

And the truth of the matter is, all anyone else can really say is that they want it, or don't want it.

Aristotle, not Plato.

Originally Posted by jomo

I'd rather say I suck and people thing I'm wrong, then saying "this proves I'm a real guitarist" or what ever that punk ass Tool kid said, and look like a total dumb ass.

Jomo, I think your posts are always fun and I'm not one to pick on you. But - I do want to use your words here to help make my point. It might be a problem, going into threads like the one you allude to and joining in with the "possible dumb-ass" flaying fray. Language is self-reflexive. It'll stick in your mind and come around, back on yourself. Make you feel weird about your own thing.

It's all about the shared interest. No good music, no bad music, not here. You want it, or you don't. Someone else might want it, someone else might not want it. That's all.

[Jason]

The natural instinct is to make excuses before even unveiling your work, so as to prevent embarrassment. Think about the kind of people here on MLP, though, and you'll realize that your fear of shame is completely unfounded.

[River]

Excellent points, all. This sort of thing cuts both ways, as I would rather hear all of the pre-excuses than have someone with a user name like "GuitarGod" tell me ahead of time that I'm going to want to give up music after I hear their clip.

I'm reminded of the age-old question "Honey, does this make my ass look fat?".

My goal for myself and everyone participating is that we feel comfortable enough to just do our best and slap it out there for everyone to hear, appreciate, critique, and learn from - and for us to take the critiques to heart and learn from them. I guess it's working for me, as even after weeding through the obligatory compliments, it's said my recordings are getting better. That's only because I'm doing them and paying attention to the feedback - well, most of it. I doubt I'd be making much progress in a vacuum.

As an aside, one thing I'm surprised about is the dearth of questions about gear. What better way to sift through all of the (expensive) myths than to hear a member's tone you admire and ask how they're getting it? Frankly, I think a lot of people don't want to hear the straight answer!

[Duane24]

this subject is a catch 22 really

If someone says that someone playing is bad on here, even if they're calling a spade a spade, they'll get called out as a troll...

seen it happen.

just sayin'.

[River]

Originally Posted by Duane24

this subject is a catch 22 really

If someone says that someone playing is bad on here, even if they're calling a spade a spade, they'll get called out as a troll...

seen it happen.

just sayin'.

Yes, very true. But if the recordist has the respect for him/herself and listeners to at least tune up and listen to the final product before posting it, few if any of us are going to offer anything but constructive criticism, IME.

[Quill]

Originally Posted by Duane24

this subject is a catch 22 really

If someone says that someone playing is bad on here, even if they're calling a spade a spade, they'll get called out as a troll...

I'm suggesting dropping the whole "good"/"bad" thing, entirely. Not for the sake of sparing some delicate flower's feelings, or in the interest of gilding lilies. I mean, for the sake of what it lets you hear, and do.

[Duane24]

Originally Posted by Quill

I'm suggesting dropping the whole "good"/"bad" thing, entirely. Not for the sake of sparing some delicate flower's feelings, or in the interest of gilding lilies. I mean, for the sake of what it lets you hear, and do.

I understand music is subjective, but there is such a thing as skill levels when it comes to guitars.

There are people who run up and down the minor pentatonic without a clue as to what they're doing and think they're playing. And their are players who use modes and scales properly and construct a coherent lead line to the rhythm.

I don't claim to be the latter, I'm working towards being that. I just think there are skill levels, someones skill is also a matter of opinion too, but there are different degree's of players.

People do play bad, I've heard it.

[Quill]

Originally Posted by Duane24

People do play bad, I've heard it.

I don't know. I know I've heard things that I didn't want to take in, that I didn't want to become a part of my own creative process and production of things. Sometimes it comes in, anyway. Then, the really hard work starts.

Beyond that ... too hard for me to say.

There are "gifted" listeners - receivers of artistic works - "critics", if you must - who can understand what will have broad appeal. Many of the artists I've known who can both know what will "work" in that sense of a salable thing, and be a producer of that thing - well, I wouldn't mind having some money the way they have money, so I could get a bit more rest, but I wouldn't want their minds.

I don't know! I don't know anything. I'm just offering a suggestion, that's all. About something that makes me feel a little better, as a player and creative person. Which is hard, very very very hard, to do. Take it or leave it. I'm out. Seeya! Best of luck!

[River]

I'm with Quill. I don't feel I'm very good at anything musical, except expressing myself. I started recording and posting so I could get input - I have virtually NO access to other players, much less teachers.

Sight-unseen (audio only) I've gotten fantastic advice upon which I've been able to capitalize. If someone says something I did is just plain bad, without suggesting how to improve on it, I just ignore 'em.

Some of my earlier recordings sound pretty damned "bad" to me, and I'm sure some think the more recent ones are "bad" as well. I only care that the more recent ones sound better than the earlier ones, TO ME.

[BMS]

Who on Earth is saying "You suck"? This is and should be a respectable place among peers. Constructive criticism is great and no one should take that the wrong way. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it. At least not here. Keep it to yourself. Everyone has their own way of expressing themselves musically, seasoned or not. I'm enjoying listening to everyone's interpretation to River's backing tracks. Sometimes when I go to a Jam Night and my peers try to get me to get up and play, I often decline because sometimes I just like to kick back and enjoy other people play for a change.


Disclaimer: This does not apply to Antilegends. Say what you like. There is an exception to every rule, and this is one of those exceptions!

[Mike's_LP]

Originally Posted by The_Sentry

It's kinda like fixing someone's car...and then telling them "Hey...I did a really crappy job on this, just so you know..."

Originally Posted by WhippingPost

There's nothing wrong with being truthful! My personal favorite between my boss and I is:

"I fixed it." *Great, what was the problem?* "I'm not really sure, but it's working fine now." *So what did you do?* "I whacked it with a hammer." *A Hammer?* "Yep. [Gesturing with hands] A big one."

I think part of it is just insecurity. You're posting your work up for people to review and critique, so it's easy to be a little apprehensive. Sometimes I play something, and on playback it's so much better than what I thought it would be. Sometimes it's much, much worse. I know that the more I try to correct a song, the more I lose of the original feel, so I just post them up, warts and all. It's a little scary to see what the comments will be, or worse if there will be any comments at all.

I've said for a long time: "The right hammer can fix anything!" I know exactly what you mean, WP.

I'm a hands-on, nuts & bolts kinda guy. I understand Sentry's analogy & there are different degrees of "repair" that one can make, but in my mind, it doesn't apply here. If I'm paying someone to fix my car, I'll know before I agree exactly what he'll do to the car. He either does it, or he does not. Black & white.

Playing (Or listening to) music for enjoyment is PURELY subjective. With my playing, I'm hardly a prodigy. (Like Derek Trucks, for example) I combine my love for the music with techniques I've learned to try to convey what I feel. I think I'm fairly competent, but I don't think it flows out of me organically. (Like DT, SRV, etc.) Others might hear it differently.

As far as listening, I know what I like & I have an understanding of how music is constructed, but it all comes down to my mood at the moment, I suppose.

I guess it all comes down to a balance of confidence, acceptance, empathy, humility... Sounds like a life-long quest for anybody regarding all things.

I will saw that I give anybody credit for posting their music, because they're braver than I am in that regard. Maybe I'll overcome that.

Sorry for rambling, I'm pretty hung over, maybe I'll edit this after I've showered & woken up a bit more.

[Cookie-boy]

Forget all the bollocks and the navel gazing. It either sounds good or it doesn't.

[River]

Originally Posted by Cookie-boy

Forget all the bollocks and the navel gazing. It either sounds good or it doesn't.

Let me rephrase that for you, CB - it either blows your skirt up or it doesn't!

[Cookie-boy]

[Quill]

[Tuya Customs]

Hey Sentry just posted one up.... and I apologized for sounding bad... sorry lol!