Did rocknroll die?

[tao_of_drew]

I think some of this thread is being derailed in the semantics of the difference in "rock n roll" and "rock".
Someone once said, "Aerosmith is rock, the Rolling Stones are rock n roll". I couldn't agree more.
There's a big difference between the two.
Just because a band has guitars, don't make it rock n roll.
Nirvana ain't rock n roll. Neither is Soundgarden, Metallica, or Tool.
But by that same token, neither is Van Halen, Motley Crue, or Journey.
Rock music? Ok, I'll buy that they're rock.

But Rock n roll is the Stones, AC/DC, Little Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, The Ramones, and the Stooges. Raw, stupid, barbaric, dumb rock n roll. The way the good Lord meant it to be.
Ain't nobody makin' music like that no more.



Rock is still out there farting away, but rock n roll is dead my friends. Till I can turn on a radio and hear something new that sounds like Exile on Main St., I will stick to my belief. For crying out loud, Nickleback is on the Billboard Top 10 currently... and God help me, I looked.
I wanna see new rock n roll music on iTunes top 10 downloads before I'll believe it, and no amount of bar bands are gonna convince me.

[tao_of_drew]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

Nor am I about to stay up at night pondering this, or any other, MLP discussion. I'm not dancing around any point you make, because your only point, that rock in the 60s is better than rock today, is unsupported. The only thing you've offered is an opinion. I don't need to dance around your opinion, because in the end, it doesn't do it for me.

You have my permission to change my mind. You just need to bring the goods, because I don't just take your word, or tao of drew's, or anyone else's for it.

Lacking that, it's just an Internet opinion, and it's worth every penny I've paid for it.

The problem is that no matter what "evidence" is brought forward, you're gonna give someone the The Big Lebowski Defense ("Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"), and it will also, in fact, be your opinion as well (man).
We're all gonna have our different definitions.

I submit as my evidence, the Killer himself. Came to Graceland with a loaded .22 looking to shoot Elvis... and just recently married for the 7th time to his cousin's ex wife. That's rock n roll to me. It ain't just about the music. It's a way of life.

Jerry Lee Lewis - Whole Lotta Shakin' Going On (1957) - YouTube

Jerry Lee Lewis - Whole Lotta Shakin' Going On (1957) - YouTube

If anyone can submit something that rockin' from 2012, I will say, you're right, rock n roll is still alive.
I think that's fair.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by tao_of_drew

The problem is that no matter what "evidence" is brought forward, you're gonna give someone the The Big Lebowski Defense ("Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"), and it will also, in fact, be your opinion as well (man).
We're all gonna have our different definitions.

Firstly, it is all opinion. Everyone has their own definition of rock'n'roll, too.

I can accept that opinions differ. What I reject is the idea that some opinions are factual and some aren't.

I submit as my evidence, the Killer himself. Came to Graceland with a loaded .22 looking to shoot Elvis... and just recently married for the 7th time to his cousin's ex wife. That's rock n roll to me. It ain't just about the music. It's a way of life.
Jerry Lee Lewis - Whole Lotta Shakin' Going On (1957) - YouTube

Well, if willingness to commit crimes is rock 'n' roll, you're gonna have to open up the field to gangsta rappers who'd make the Killer look pretty tame.

Me, I'm talkin' about music. If you want to talk about shootin' folk, go head over to a rap forum. I'm sure they'll appreciate your point here.

If anyone can submit something that rockin' from 2012, I will say, you're right, rock n roll is still alive.
I think that's fair.

Why bother? You'll simply say it isn't "rock 'n' roll" because he didn't threaten to kill someone, or something -- it's an exercise in nailing Jell-o to the wall. I understand why you feel as you do, but I'm talking about music. You, and Phonebooth, are obviously speaking of a cultural milieux, and quite frankly, it's a good thing that that is dead, in my view.

I could imagine nothing more boring than 60 years with no change, nor much that would be less enticing than trying to live up to some image fashioned by others two generations ago which has all the relevance to me of a 1860s cowboy.

Enjoy yesterday's mythology ... I'll see you tomorrow.

[Roman4405]

Originally Posted by tao_of_drew

I think some of this thread is being derailed in the semantics of the difference in "rock n roll" and "rock".
Someone once said, "Aerosmith is rock, the Rolling Stones are rock n roll". I couldn't agree more.
There's a big difference between the two.
Just because a band has guitars, don't make it rock n roll.
Nirvana ain't rock n roll. Neither is Soundgarden, Metallica, or Tool.
But by that same token, neither is Van Halen, Motley Crue, or Journey.
Rock music? Ok, I'll buy that they're rock.

But Rock n roll is the Stones, AC/DC, Little Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, The Ramones, and the Stooges. Raw, stupid, barbaric, dumb rock n roll. The way the good Lord meant it to be.
Ain't nobody makin' music like that no more.



Rock is still out there farting away, but rock n roll is dead my friends. Till I can turn on a radio and hear something new that sounds like Exile on Main St., I will stick to my belief. For crying out loud, Nickleback is on the Billboard Top 10 currently... and God help me, I looked.
I wanna see new rock n roll music on iTunes top 10 downloads before I'll believe it, and no amount of bar bands are gonna convince me.

How the hell are The Ramones Rock n Roll but Nirvana isn't? Don't get me wrong, if you're gonna stick such specific labels on music how are The Ramones anything but Punk. And I like The Ramones but this argument doesn't make sense.

[5-0 phonebooth]

Rock n Roll isn't supposed to make sense.

[Roman4405]

Originally Posted by 5-0 phonebooth

Rock n Roll isn't supposed to make sense.

I agree but an argument should.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by Roman4405

How the hell are The Ramones Rock n Roll but Nirvana isn't? Don't get me wrong, if you're gonna stick such specific labels on music how are The Ramones anything but Punk. And I like The Ramones but this argument doesn't make sense.

Well, the Ramones dressed like 50s greasers, in leather jackets and jeans. None of this stuff about sweaters and corduroys.

Because clearly, if it doesn't wear the right uniform, it isn't rock 'n' roll.

[Brian in NJ]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

Enjoy yesterday's mythology ... I'll see you tomorrow.

I vowed not to post in this thread any more, but had to respond to this line.

Look, fans of old, new, in-between; "rock" or "rock-and-roll" - whatever you want to listen to is fine with me. My own opinion is that if you choose to ignore new music then it's your loss - and conversely I imagine you feel the same way about me.

The attitude means very little to me - just give me the music.

from 2012: http://dirtyfences.bandcamp.com/track/sid?permalink

[st.bede]

one question to ask is "if the early rolling stones were a new band today would they get any radio play"? I can not imagine it happening. R+R has always been a fusion of jazz, country, and blues.

Today things are too dominated by narrow stylistic approaches and are crushed by marketing. If you play rockabilly, you have to play a certain way, if you play x you have to play a certain way. If you play x you have to look a certain way. Everything is narrowly derivative. I can not see how there is a space for a certain creativity that lies at the heart for R+R. I myself have the same problems we all do, which is, the I play x so I do x. Everything has become an image.

I could be arguing from Plato's third man argument. I tend to believe that not to be a strong position. But in part I am arguing from the acknowledgment that a capitalist structure always appropriates what it can make money from and that the sophistication of advertisement has had a profound psychological impact. My last two points would be hard to dismiss due to the fact they are really the definitions of what both have come to mean. Of course there are always cracks and tensions (however there is always the negation of the negation) but these tend to be limited at this moment.

[tao_of_drew]

Originally Posted by Brian in NJ

from 2012: http://dirtyfences.bandcamp.com/track/sid?permalink

I like it

[Brian in NJ]

Originally Posted by tao_of_drew

I like it

Not breaking any new ground (to me it sounds like it could have been recorded 30 years ago) but not everything has to be new and innovative. Just good enough to hear again.

[riffsmachine]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

"Those who see only what they wish are doomed to rot in the stink of their own perceptions." -- Frank Herbert.

Wow! Very impressive!

Poets, poetry, blues,rock,rock blues,blues rock, sleeping in a railway station,folk,jazz,folk blues,blues folk, leaving home, black music in all forms, giving up with all that shit, utopias, love, mental disorder trying to open new doors, on the road, rock progressive, progressive rock, progressive nothing but nice, innocence,naivete well spend, true artists, peace, brotherwood, extremely good vibes, extremely good music, nice people, London city, Liverpool, San Francisco,new arts, hard rock, sweet pop rock, have something to say, beat, beat music, beat generation, a breeze of fresh air,and more,and more and more.......that i can't remember...

Good continuation of your compulsive typing on a computer keyboard!

Me

[Eddieblz]

Sorry Rock n Roll was taken over by the music industry, then was turned into a digital copy of it's self, then marketed and sold. RIP

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by riffsmachine

Wow! Very impressive!

Poets, poetry, blues,rock,rock blues,blues rock, sleeping in a railway station,folk,jazz,folk blues,blues folk, leaving home, black music in all forms, giving up with all that shit, utopias, love, mental disorder trying to open new doors, on the road, rock progressive, progressive rock, progressive nothing but nice, innocence,naivete well spend, true artists, peace, brotherwood, extremely good vibes, extremely good music, nice people, London city, Liverpool, San Francisco,new arts, hard rock, sweet pop rock, have something to say, beat, beat music, beat generation, a breeze of fresh air,and more,and more and more.......that i can't remember...

Good continuation of your compulsive typing on a computer keyboard!

Me

Hey, let me know if you get my point or not. From appearances, you don't, but I try to be generous when in doubt.

I'll be happy to draw it finer if you wish.

[riffsmachine]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

Hey, let me know if you get my point or not. From appearances, you don't, but I try to be generous when in doubt.

I'll be happy to draw it finer if you wish.

Thanks for your mercy.
I responded at that citation of Frank Herbert that is an attempt to be succintly with other's brain. And not say anything....

Rock 'n' roll music (see jazz, blues, folk,popoular songs) took its forms from the working classes. (see Elvis biography, blacks musicians, british bands, american bands). It's all start (as a plant) from the bottom and increased branching in many directions..... It's all start from the bottom..... And what's the bottom?
A sum of human experience that are lost in a mists of time.

Thats why most of the music you listen since you are a child sound like familiar.
Music is able to "evocate" a wide range of emotions, moods, passions, dreams, that are a heritage of all mankind. No exception... And this goes for all ages.

So back to the 60's and 70's i think that songs like "The end" (The Doors) or some punk bands in late 70's, or certain glamour, decadent-rock marked a point of no return.

The rest is entertainment.

Band like Foo Fighters,no bad, but it's all about producers,production, everything is calculate,measured, at first you say "wow" but after four plays the truth comes out.....Look at their faces......This is true for most bands of today and the past 20-30 years.
No more Jefferson Airplane, no more Doors, and Jimi...... The list is too long....No more British bands frothing at the mouth.
In this parody of freedom which is the world today.


Records were round to play thousands of times.
They were called "evergreen".

[Eddieblz]

Originally Posted by st.bede

one question to ask is "if the early rolling stones were a new band today would they get any radio play"? I can not imagine it happening. R+R has always been a fusion of jazz, country, and blues.

Today things are too dominated by narrow stylistic approaches and are crushed by marketing. If you play rockabilly, you have to play a certain way, if you play x you have to play a certain way. If you play x you have to look a certain way. Everything is narrowly derivative. I can not see how there is a space for a certain creativity that lies at the heart for R+R. I myself have the same problems we all do, which is, the I play x so I do x. Everything has become an image.

I could be arguing from Plato's third man argument. I tend to believe that not to be a strong position. But in part I am arguing from the acknowledgment that a capitalist structure always appropriates what it can make money from and that the sophistication of advertisement has had a profound psychological impact. My last two points would be hard to dismiss due to the fact they are really the definitions of what both have come to mean. Of course there are always cracks and tensions (however there is always the negation of the negation) but these tend to be limited at this moment.

I blame it on, "American Idol". This was the end result of sophist, self proclaimed experts who's only talent is Deception and how to package and market product so they can line their own pockets scamming the true artists. So now what we have is cookie cutter music, devoid of any imagination. Anything new showing true a artistic ability is suppressed and pushed out of view. This is usually because these true artists do not give two s--ts about the music industry. I'm sure some of you are here, right on this forum. And you can tell me if I'm wrong. I'm not claiming to be some kind of expert, because I'm not. I'm just a music (and not just rock n roll) fan who does play a little himself and has watch this tragic event happen over 5 decades. Some body on this thread said, that rock n roll is on life support being kept alive by Youtube, that's a shame. Well the music industry is trying to stop that also, banning videos from being shown in certain countries unless the member pays royalties to the industry. They say it's to protect the musician. Now I may be wrong on this and some of you may correct me on this if I am, but how much of that money really gets into the musicians pockets. Well forgive me for the rant, I know I'm new to this forum, I'll try not to do it again.
--later Eddie

[Kalz]

"Rock 'n' roll ain't noise pollution
Rock 'n' roll ain't gonna die
Rock 'n' roll ain't noise pollution
Rock 'n' roll it will survive"

[mgenet]

Okay. Straight up answer. NO BS: Yes.







Now lets go play some rock 'n' roll, dammit.

[st.bede]

Originally Posted by riffsmachine

Thanks for your mercy.
I responded at that citation of Frank Herbert that is an attempt to be succintly with other's brain. And not say anything....

Rock 'n' roll music (see jazz, blues, folk,popoular songs) took its forms from the working classes. (see Elvis biography, blacks musicians, british bands, american bands). It's all start (as a plant) from the bottom and increased branching in many directions..... It's all start from the bottom..... And what's the bottom?
A sum of human experience that are lost in a mists of time.

Thats why most of the music you listen since you are a child sound like familiar.
Music is able to "evocate" a wide range of emotions, moods, passions, dreams, that are a heritage of all mankind. No exception... And this goes for all ages.

So back to the 60's and 70's i think that songs like "The end" (The Doors) or some punk bands in late 70's, or certain glamour, decadent-rock marked a point of no return.

The rest is entertainment.

Band like Foo Fighters,no bad, but it's all about producers,production, everything is calculate,measured, at first you say "wow" but after four plays the truth comes out.....Look at their faces......This is true for most bands of today and the past 20-30 years.
No more Jefferson Airplane, no more Doors, and Jimi...... The list is too long....No more British bands frothing at the mouth.
In this parody of freedom which is the world today.


Records were round to play thousands of times.
They were called "evergreen".

...your answer is good enough for me... the only dynamic to expand upon (in my humble thoughts) is that this entertainment uses well thought out symbology to provoke a feeling that a person is actualizing themselves by adopting an image... the feeling is that, the symbol allows for them to create or fulfill their inner desires but it is at best a starting point for the hard work it takes to know yourself... and at worst, it is a shallow feeling that then is replaced by other meaningless symbols that allow for a person to continue to not really heal...

[riffsmachine]

Originally Posted by st.bede

...your answer is good enough for me... the only dynamic to expand upon (in my humble thoughts) is that this entertainment uses well thought out symbology to provoke a feeling that a person is actualizing themselves by adopting an image... the feeling is that, the symbol allows for them to create or fulfill their inner desires but it is at best a starting point for the hard work it takes to know yourself... and at worst, it is a shallow feeling that then is replaced by other meaningless symbols that allow for a person to continue to not really heal...

Yes, my friend you couldn't say better.
Is not required to have slept in a railways station in the subways,or have lived in frozen apartments without money to play blues or rock but in a long term it can help.

[VealCutlet]

Rock, Rock 'n Roll, Punk, whatever you want to call it...it's still alive. For proof, go see either of these two bands live. Sometimes you have to go to a bike shop for the best rock shows.

Wild Flag - Romance (Live on KEXP) - YouTube

Wild Flag - Romance (Live on KEXP) - YouTube

Steve Wynn & The Miracle 3 - Amphetamine (Live on KEXP) - YouTube

Steve Wynn & The Miracle 3 - Amphetamine (Live on KEXP) - YouTube

Alternatively, go do it yourself.

[5-0 phonebooth]

I wish there was a bike shop like that in my neighborhood!

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by riffsmachine

Thanks for your mercy.
I responded at that citation of Frank Herbert that is an attempt to be succintly with other's brain. And not say anything....

Rock 'n' roll music (see jazz, blues, folk,popoular songs) took its forms from the working classes. (see Elvis biography, blacks musicians, british bands, american bands). It's all start (as a plant) from the bottom and increased branching in many directions..... It's all start from the bottom..... And what's the bottom?
A sum of human experience that are lost in a mists of time.

Thats why most of the music you listen since you are a child sound like familiar.
Music is able to "evocate" a wide range of emotions, moods, passions, dreams, that are a heritage of all mankind. No exception... And this goes for all ages.

So back to the 60's and 70's i think that songs like "The end" (The Doors) or some punk bands in late 70's, or certain glamour, decadent-rock marked a point of no return.

The rest is entertainment.

Band like Foo Fighters,no bad, but it's all about producers,production, everything is calculate,measured, at first you say "wow" but after four plays the truth comes out.....Look at their faces......This is true for most bands of today and the past 20-30 years.
No more Jefferson Airplane, no more Doors, and Jimi...... The list is too long....No more British bands frothing at the mouth.
In this parody of freedom which is the world today.


Records were round to play thousands of times.
They were called "evergreen".

I disagree with your assessment. Do you have clubs around you with working rock bands? We do here. Granted, it's not like it was in 95, when you couldn't throw an empty beer can without hitting a classic-rock band's rehearsal space, but really, it's on the ground floor even today. But if, like Jim Morrison you get your "ear down, to the ground", you'll hear the thunder.

It won't sound like Jerry Lee Lewis or CCR or Zep, because we don't live in those times. But saying that only those performers define rock 'n' roll is a form of killing it, when you think about it: you've encased it inside a cage, weighed it down with rules about how it's supposed to sound, and set up royalty which cannot be approached unless one bows his head and averts his gaze.

I understand respecting our forebears, but that attitude is profoundly non-rock 'n' roll, in my book. First and foremost, rock 'n' roll is this:



... and it should flip that bird at itself too, as it looks in the mirror, in order to avoid becoming a static, lifeless art-form bent on recreating "glory days" rather than moving forward.

[5-0 phonebooth]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

rock 'n' roll is this:

Johnny was just mugging for the camera, maybe he saw then what we're seeing now.

[HOT-BRIT]

it is constantly evolving

[Kezia]

Silversun Pickups - Well Thought Out Twinkles (video) - YouTube

Silversun Pickups - Well Thought Out Twinkles (video) - YouTube

Margot and the Nuclear So and So's -Let's Paint Our Teeth Green - YouTube

Margot and the Nuclear So and So's -Let's Paint Our Teeth Green - YouTube

A couple newer bands I really dig... especially Silversun Pickups

[Brian in NJ]

Originally Posted by VealCutlet

Rock, Rock 'n Roll, Punk, whatever you want to call it...it's still alive. For proof, go see either of these two bands live. Sometimes you have to go to a bike shop for the best rock shows.

"Romance" and "Amphetamine"..... two fantastic songs! Wild Flag just played Philly last week and I couldn't make it. But my daughter wouldn't have forgiven me if I went without her anyway... a 10pm show is too late for an 8-year old.

[Hurricane Jake]

To name some current bands:

The Darkness
Airbourne
Steel Panther
Jettblack

Open a couple of beers and blast some of these out; that's what Rock 'n Roll is about, it's not some form of categorical checklist nonsense, it just happens.

[old mark]

These guys still do it pretty well...2011 in BA, Argentina...

AC/DC Live At River Plate: Rock`N`Roll Train HD - YouTube

AC/DC Live At River Plate: Rock`N`Roll Train HD - YouTube

I think they are still rocking, even with all the stage props... and grey hair.

So the answer is NO.
mark

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by 5-0 phonebooth

Johnny was just mugging for the camera, maybe he saw then what we're seeing now.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Johnny was cool with modern rock before he died. After all, he took some good modern songs and made them work for him:

Thirteen - Johnny Cash - YouTube

Thirteen - Johnny Cash - YouTube

Johnny Cash - Rusty Cage - YouTube

Johnny Cash - Rusty Cage - YouTube

Johnny Cash - "One" - YouTube

Johnny Cash - "One" - YouTube

It's a pity that more folk from the early days of rock don't share his open ears.