Buy Coke, Get Healthcare!

kernelofwisdom · 05-12-2009, 09:01 AM

Well as we dream up ideas on how to move toward universal healthcare in the US, the question becomes how to pay for it.

The American way is: Don't pay for it! Just run up the deficit! So, that will probably be the answer. But there are other solutions.

Soda Tax Weighed to Pay for Health Care - WSJ.com

Now that we've got smokers paying sin tax and drinkers paying sin tax, it's time to bring in the soft drink drinkers, the real scourge of society. Sugary drinks contribute to all sorts of diseases and negative health conditions. A massive tax on them would help pay for health care. From there it is a short leap to levying a sin tax on fast food, and other unhealthy foods, like backyard BBQ and potato chips, etc.

Of course, these taxes are regressive by nature, but then the benefits they will pay for will also be applied more directly toward low income people, at least at first.

I think it is completely insane that our health insurance model is based on employers picking plans, instead of individuals picking plans. That isn't really a "market" solution at all, since the ultimate consumers have little direct input in the choice of the product they'll purchase and use. Yet it looks like we'll migrate from that to a government run plan, and not try the middle approach. This will be interesting for sure.

***Led Zep Fan*** · 05-12-2009, 09:03 AM

Funny, it has nothing to do with detering people from eating/drinking unhealthy...

Quote:

The beverage-tax proposal would apply to drinks that many Americans don't consider unhealthy -- such as PepsiCo's Gatorade and Kraft's Capri Sun -- based on their calorie content.

They just want more of our $$$.

ojedad23 · 05-12-2009, 09:05 AM

Imagine if they started to super heavily tax musical instruments

kernelofwisdom · 05-12-2009, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Led Zep Fan

Funny, it has nothing to do with detering people from eating/drinking unhealthy...

They just want more of our $$$.

Right! They want that money for the programs they want to do. I find it insulting that they try to cloud the legitimate need to pay for a program, if you decide you will have the program, with behavior control through taxation.

But really, it works. People think it's great that smokers and drinkers get taxed inordinately. Well, the logic goes right down the line to cokes and mcdonalds. I don't drink sugar drinks or ever eat at fast food, so why should I pay for people who do who incur health problems at a higher rate than people who don't? When I drink beer, I pay the higher tax, so when somebody orders a combo with supersize coke, let them contribute right there and then to the costs of society!

The long arm of the government gets ever longer...

Once the public has signed on to government behavior control through taxation (and it has), it is only a matter of time before your own personal ox gets gored.

Of course, like cigarettes, if consumption goes down, well government spending will not, so the programs will have to be funded by taxing other things, and the net gets wider...

Drudeboy · 05-12-2009, 09:10 AM

What you lot need is a National Health Service, free medical care for all., apart from the £7.20 per item for prescribed medication. However I don't have to pay that because I'm diabetic, so I get free prescriptions

Mind you, looking at the state of the NHS....

kernelofwisdom · 05-12-2009, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drudeboy

What you lot need is a National Health Service, free medical care for all.

Mind you, looking at the state of ours.....

I was hoping we'd migrate to taxed advantaged health care plans purchased by individuals, with regulations by government on content as now, with subsidized healthcare for the poor and needy. I think the current system is crazy. Employers, who usually are by no means healthcare experts, pick the plans for working Americans. The government blows $$$ on the rest of society, with programs that were not designed to function at the size they are now.

But, looks like we'll move over pretty quickly to government decreed plans and pricing fairly rapidly. Not saying that's worse than what we have. Not saying it isn't. But once employers have a government choice, they will get the hell out of healthcare as soon as possible.

***Led Zep Fan*** · 05-12-2009, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kernelofwisdom

Of course, like cigarettes, if consumption goes down, well government spending will not, so the programs will have to be funded by taxing other things, and the net gets wider...

You're preaching to the choir.....

SKATTERBRANE · 05-12-2009, 09:22 AM

I am in favor of socialized healthcare, as long as it is done right, and uses the best models availible, however, whenever OUR government does anything, it becomes bastardized and ends up costing MORE and accomplishing LESS. (and even MORE money ends up in the corrupt people's hands)

***Led Zep Fan*** · 05-12-2009, 09:24 AM

Deficits soar even with rosy Obama budget assumptions | McClatchy

My Way News - US to borrow 46 cents for every dollar spent

They should think about paying this shit off before spending any more!

kernelofwisdom · 05-12-2009, 09:27 AM

I think Americans are so poorly educated on the subject that many don't realize the compromises involved, and the government foul-ups there will be too.

There are many words being used to cover up the idea, but cost containment will be achieved in part through rationing of care and denial of therapies that are too expensive to be worth the chance that it might save your life. Those on the cutting edge of developing these therapies understand that funding them in practice will be difficult, under public or private models. But government run healthcare does not mean get what you want when you want. It ain't burger king people!

Scooter2112 · 05-12-2009, 09:28 AM

If government controls it, government can ration it.

Careful what we wish for.

geochem1st · 05-12-2009, 12:06 PM

I think that everyone has to agree first on WHY healthcare is so expensive. There are a lot of different arguments as to why, some make sense some don't.

Is the increase in HC costs due to rising litigations? Would it be more beneficial to tackle that aspect of expense through better legislation?

Is the rising costs due to new drug and medical technologies? Why should new drugs and new tools should raise medical costs threefold? Technical innovations usually lower the costs of production.

Are the costs due to the Insurance companies themselves?

Is it because we are grossly unhealthy as a population?

How much of an effect does illegal immigration have on HC's?

I have yet to see a paper that puts it all in perspective with accompanying data that can be verified. Until we know what the root causes of the problem are, how can we effectively deal with them?

kernelofwisdom · 05-12-2009, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geochem1st

I think that everyone has to agree first on WHY healthcare is so expensive. There are a lot of different arguments as to why, some make sense some don't.

Is the increase in HC costs due to rising litigations? Would it be more beneficial to tackle that aspect of expense through better legislation?

Is the rising costs due to new drug and medical technologies? Why should new drugs and new tools should raise medical costs threefold? Technical innovations usually lower the costs of production.

Are the costs due to the Insurance companies themselves?

Is it because we are grossly unhealthy as a population?

How much of an effect does illegal immigration have on HC's?

I have yet to see a paper that puts it all in perspective with accompanying data that can be verified. Until we know what the root causes of the problem are, how can we effectively deal with them?

I don't think there is much of push to effectively deal with expense, other than window dressing. The more important thing seems to be to make health care a government responsibility, for right or wrong.

But those are all good points you make that impact the system.

As to the increae in costs with technology, well they are able to do things they couldn't even think about spending money on in the past. And many of those things prolong life and keep expense going. So, more money gets pumped through the system. Cable hasn't made TV cheaper. It used to cost the average family nothing to watch tv beyond the tv set. Now think of the real impact of tv on the average family budget.

I think people want health care to be on the leading edge, and that's expensive. When individualized gene therapies become realistic on a large scale, it will be difficult to decide who is a candidate and who is not, because the money does not exist to treat everyone to the maximum extent possible now, much less later when ever more sophisticated treatments are available.

There are those who want government healthcare because they think it is a good thing for society to insure that everyone has access to healthcare. And there are those who want it because they think it will be great and free. That second group is going to be let down I think!

needlespauls · 05-12-2009, 12:18 PM

geo, I agree with you.
The government needs to actually address and correct any and ALL of those issues you mentioned above. Not just tax all of us on rediculous things and in turn making it harder for us financially and potentially fatal for some of these business. Stupid stupid dicks!!! God forbid they clean up the actual crookedness and bad legislation with the health care industry. Politics as usual.........

needlespauls · 05-12-2009, 12:23 PM

People can sue anyone for anything, illegal immigrants can have access to the same quality as any actual US citizen and in some cases preferential treatment. Do you think they pay for this care? You know how many un-american bitches will whine in this country if thats put a stop on?????
The good ole' "You''ll take it up the *ss and like it" mentallity that insurance companies have where its such a necessity.......
I was in the hospital for a couple of days once and wasn't on insurance. It was for the Norwalk Virus, and the bill was like $2800!!! Things on the bill like "$100-Box of cleanex" and stuff. Bull shit!!!!!!!!!!!

kernelofwisdom · 05-12-2009, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by needlespauls

People can sue anyone for anything, illegal immigrants can have access to the same quality as any actual US citizen and in some cases preferential treatment. Do you think they pay for this care? You know how many un-american bitches will whine in this country if thats put a stop on?????
The good ole' "You''ll take it up the *ss and like it" mentallity that insurance companies have where its such a necessity.......
I was in the hospital for a couple of days once and wasn't on insurance. It was for the Norwalk Virus, and the bill was like $2800!!! Things on the bill like "$100-Box of cleanex" and stuff. Bull shit!!!!!!!!!!!

Those things are true.

There is a lot of cost associated with an increasingly unfit population that expects, as a general rule, to invest little to nothing keeping themselves healthy but expects the healthcare system to be able to bail them out with drugs and treatments, and also to keep them alive longer than ever before. The consumers are a driver of health care costs, more than any other factor. However, those other factors are important too.

geochem1st · 05-12-2009, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kernelofwisdom

......

As to the increae in costs with technology, well they are able to do things they couldn't even think about spending money on in the past. And many of those things prolong life and keep expense going. So, more money gets pumped through the system. Cable hasn't made TV cheaper. It used to cost the average family nothing to watch tv beyond the tv set. Now think of the real impact of tv on the average family budget.
......

Cable companies have a virtual monopoly in their regions. Where is the competition to lower prices? Satelite? DirectTV? Same costs. The consumer does not benefit in a system like that. I remember when cable first came out, it was $9 a month. Has my signal and service been improved that much more since then that I have to be charged $90/month now without an HD TV? (minus internet as well)

I believe the same is true with doctors. There is no real competition. When it comes to the health of your family you are not going to the cheapest guy who just got his degree in Haiti? You are going to take them to the one who has the best reputation ... and he is expensive. That's just one aspect of the cost. Add on everything else I mentioned plus quite a bit that I haven't, plus NeedlesPauls example and its obvious that the existing system is designed to milk us dry, especially those without insurance.

Having been on both sides of the fence I have experienced different pricing tiers for when I had insurance and when I didn't.

TeleDog · 05-12-2009, 01:02 PM

The problem with healthcare is mostly due to the unregulated activities of the HMO's. The rest is just covers and little things that could be solved by simple legislation.

Banks and insurance companies have been protected by Federal Law like they're the precious babies of the government, there's little regulation and the interests of those institution, whatever they are and regardless of their actual effects on the people, are protected by extensive law and even legal precedent.

Look at United States v. Wells, that's something that can scare anyone to death!

HMO's simply take your money and deny the very same service they're supposed to offer. They have an army of lawyers and lobbyists to advance their interests, they demand the protection of those they help into office by giving away juicy campaign donations and other "charitable" contributions.

I believe in free markets, they create a strong and competitive economies. But when the market is actually hurting the people it is supposed to help prosper, then you have a problem you need to take care of.

TeleDog · 05-12-2009, 01:10 PM

I do NOT want to turn this thread into an immigration thread, but I explained before that illegal immigrants have no rights to any kind of free care under law. No rights whatsoever. It is a billing problem, and there is plenty of testimony to that effect. I could tell you more, but like I said, I will not deviate this thread.

You want entitlement? If you're an inmate in a prison, you receive free healthcare. Yup, just for the asking. You get coverage, full coverage, while you're in prison. So.... Want good healthcare? Turn into a felon.

This is absurd and cannot continue, good people pay the price of unregulated frameworks designed to encourage greed.

geochem1st · 05-12-2009, 01:17 PM

McKinsey & Company - Synthesis - Accounting for the cost of health care in the United States - January 2007

The report is free, just a simple registration. There is a box on the right side marked "More on this Report" that launches a window with some very disturbing graphs.....

***Led Zep Fan*** · 05-12-2009, 01:26 PM

Gov't runs April deficit for first time since '83

Trade deficit widens in March to $27.6 billion

kernelofwisdom · 05-12-2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geochem1st

McKinsey & Company - Synthesis - Accounting for the cost of health care in the United States - January 2007

The report is free, just a simple registration. There is a box on the right side marked "More on this Report" that launches a window with some very disturbing graphs.....

Very enlightening. Touched on one of my favorites - doctors who own a share of medical equipment (MRI or whatever) refer for that treatment at much higher rates than those who don't. I suppose many people don't know that the doctor gets paid again when those tests are run.

Overall, I'm not surprised by some of the findings, but I am by others, for example the notion that our national fatness is not causing us to incur greater costs than other nations. Also, unless I missed it, it left out issues of illegal immigration, etc., since it was focused on total cost rather than who pays that cost.

PraXis · 05-12-2009, 04:39 PM

Doctors and insurance companies both got greedy. Doctors' offices started billing more and more, while the insurance premiums went up and nice profit margins were maintained.. then the insurance companies used whatever loopholes they could find to deny care and not pay for shit.

If you pay, you should get it, period. The only way I want the government to interfere is to allow for people to purchase insurance across state lines, stopping frivolous lawsuits (unheard of in Europe) that drive up malpractice insurance and more prices-passed-onto-consumer, and SEVERELY fine anyone that uses emergency services in a non-emergency i.e. illegals.

TeleDog · 05-12-2009, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pwozzie

Doctors and insurance companies both got greedy. Doctors' offices started billing more and more, while the insurance premiums went up and nice profit margins were maintained.. then the insurance companies used whatever loopholes they could find to deny care and not pay for shit.

If you pay, you should get it, period. The only way I want the government to interfere is to allow for people to purchase insurance across state lines, stopping frivolous lawsuits (unheard of in Europe) that drive up malpractice insurance and more prices-passed-onto-consumer, and SEVERELY fine anyone that uses emergency services in a non-emergency i.e. illegals.

I agree with all of that.

However, how about those who work, who try and still cannot afford to pay a medical bill. Should they just kill themselves and sell everything to pay?

One person followed the advice you give here. It was a mom of very little resources and an AMERICAN CITIZEN. She couldn't get medicaid to paid for a root canal for the kid, had to wait till it became "an emergency". By the time the kid was seen by the ER, it was too late, and he died. Death by a tooth ache, only in America? Something to be proud of, God bless the free market.

Maybe that's the conservative solution, but that is not what I consider fair or even moral.

PraXis · 05-12-2009, 06:14 PM

There was a time when insurance was affordable. We have excellent care, it's just that access is more difficult due to the prices. I know people that get second and even third jobs, just to buy insurance (if their primary employer does not provide it).

Health care is insanely expensive to just provide for everyone, especially since our wars in the M.E. are not ending any time soon and we have millions of illegals... and 43% of our citizens don't pay income taxes... it's just unsustainable.

Bottom line, for those who can afford it, it's great. The wait times are non-existent and we get our care, medicine, etc.. so what has to happen to make it more affordable, yet keeps the doctor/patient relationship private?

I've read the French have excellent care, and it does not cost them much (I think 1% of your income is taxed towards it)... but then again, the average doctor makes 1/3 the salary of what American doctors make, and it's not as difficult or expensive to get through medical school... I don't know about you... but I'm not going to bust my ass for 12 years (college + med school + residency) to make 50k. The French also do not have the insane malpractice lawsuits that we have in America. People in this country are greedy. They always want the quick buck, and at any given time, there is a lawyer to help them get it.

TeleDog · 05-12-2009, 07:47 PM

It's a vicious cycle. Education, healthcare, it's all related. The doctor gets his MD and looks at tens of thousands in student loans. Like every other person, the doctor also has to live, and buy books, go to seminars, it's a profession that demands lots from the individual. It's not greed to find a way to pay off your debt, I think.

It's very hard to say that a doctor would voluntarily accept a less paying job without any incentives to promote public service. Doctors are human too!

The "free market" is out of control turning a system that's proven to grow the economy when regulated just enough to keep it right on track into one that's destroying the very economy that sustains it.

But the HMOs, man, they have people employed not to objectively evaluate claims but to DENY them! They FIND excuses, loopholes in the law, and if you want to get your claim accepted you have to sue. When you sue you're effectively driving up the cost for everyone because those legal fees they are forced to pay turned into price increases for the customers.

You know, I don't ask for help from the government in any way, but if I buy a service I DEMAND the service I paid for, so when the HMOs laugh in your face and deny your valid claim, for a basic service, such conduct should be forbidden by the law.

Education reform, tax reform, healthcare reform, research and technology, can't have one without the other.

I believe banks and insurance companies must be protected because they keep the economy going, but protection is different than being an accomplice to whatever shady thing they decide to perpetrate on the American people. And that's what we have today, a framework of law that protects financial entities more than it protects the people!

kernelofwisdom · 05-12-2009, 08:05 PM

There's more to it than HMO greed, as many have pointed out. It's complicated. Remember, the HMO is trying to provide a competitive product to EMPLOYERS (not you the covered employee). If they screw the employees too much while taking nothing but profit, the employer will shift providers. So, the screwing has to be shared with your employer to work. It's a reason I think employer based health care is nonsensical.

Our company is self-insured with stop-loss insurance. The health insurance company we have is an administrator, with contracts in place to handle provider payments, etc., but we bear the actual costs of health care subject to reinsurance maximums.

Years ago when I was general counsel I also was over administration and that included health care. So, in a denial of payment scenario, the ultimate appeal could and sometimes did land in my lap. In that case, my job was to enforce the plan in a balanced manner. Letting things through that were not in the plan violated a fiduciary duty to other plan members and also the company and its shareholders. So, there were limits.

Having said that, thankfully I don't do that anymore because the cases that get to that level are sad cases, and if you were depending on me to reduce health care costs by rejecting treatments, you'd be making a bad choice.

Yet I saw first hand how those situations are difficult, even if they are routinely considered to be mercenary in nature at the final decision level. The covered individual wants to be covered period because they cannot afford, or do not want to make the sacrifice to afford, the disputed care item. But just approving everything runs the plan cost up, is unfair to the other participants in the system, and blows budgets. Eventually, the cost has to be paid by somebody.

Right now that somebody is often your employer, and trust me, your employer hates paying medical premiums. So when that HMO is "screwing" you, remember those savings will be presented to your employer as the HMO keeping plan costs down. Your employer then decides if those savings are worth it in light of employee complaints. In a fully insured scenario, it is the HMO's call, but they have to face those decisions come contract renewal time. It is generally pretty clear, too, when HMO's present to you which are going to be more hard-nosed. For an administrator, we wanted somebody middle of the road, but back then times were easier.

I will say something else about the litigation angle. First, good luck filing a lawsuit if your plan screws you. The laws are quite tough and complicated and most lawyers don't want to touch it, unless you're paying cash. The system is on the side of the providers in that case. Second, for malpractice, many states have reformed the system over the years, and in NC you cannot file a lawsuit for malpractice without a doctor certifying the merits of the lawsuit. Yet, for the all the complaining people do, many, MANY, MANY more people wish they could file lawsuits each year than lawyers are willing to take. Maybe we got involved in 10% of the "cases" people brought, something like that. I'm not denying there is bogus litigation, but also we generally are a society that believes when something, anything, goes wrong, we should get a check. And doctors generally believe they should never be sued.

geochem1st · 05-13-2009, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pwozzie

There was a time when insurance was affordable. We have excellent care, it's just that access is more difficult due to the prices. I know people that get second and even third jobs, just to buy insurance (if their primary employer does not provide it).

Health care is insanely expensive to just provide for everyone, especially since our wars in the M.E. are not ending any time soon and we have millions of illegals... and 43% of our citizens don't pay income taxes... it's just unsustainable.

The industry costs in its current form are unsustainable, which is why industry reform is necessary. Why do name brand medications cost more here than in other countries? Isn't it a conflict of intrust when a doctor sends you out for tests at a facility that he has a financial interest in?

Having to work 3 jobs just to obtain medical care for your family is insane.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pwozzie

.....I've read the French have excellent care, and it does not cost them much (I think 1% of your income is taxed towards it)... but then again, the average doctor makes 1/3 the salary of what American doctors make, and it's not as difficult or expensive to get through medical school... I don't know about you... but I'm not going to bust my ass for 12 years (college + med school + residency) to make 50k. The French also do not have the insane malpractice lawsuits that we have in America. People in this country are greedy. They always want the quick buck, and at any given time, there is a lawyer to help them get it.

The US has a lower life expectancy and higher infant mortality rate than the OECD countries who have a cheaper healthcare system. Reform is needed.

McKinsey & Company - Synthesis - Accounting for the cost of health care in the United States - January 2007

geochem1st · 05-13-2009, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kernelofwisdom

....... for example the notion that our national fatness is not causing us to incur greater costs than other nations. ....

Sounds like good ammunition to counter stupid tax ideas. Someone should pass this study on to the Conservative leadership.

kernelofwisdom · 05-13-2009, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geochem1st

Sounds like good ammunition to counter stupid tax ideas. Someone should pass this study on to the Conservative leadership.

Wait, there's no such thing as conservative leadership these days!

05-12-2009, 09:01 AM	#1 (permalink)
kernelofwisdom V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 5,414 Thanks: 144 Thanked 260 Times in 44 Posts	Buy Coke, Get Healthcare! Well as we dream up ideas on how to move toward universal healthcare in the US, the question becomes how to pay for it. The American way is: Don't pay for it! Just run up the deficit! So, that will probably be the answer. But there are other solutions. Soda Tax Weighed to Pay for Health Care - WSJ.com Now that we've got smokers paying sin tax and drinkers paying sin tax, it's time to bring in the soft drink drinkers, the real scourge of society. Sugary drinks contribute to all sorts of diseases and negative health conditions. A massive tax on them would help pay for health care. From there it is a short leap to levying a sin tax on fast food, and other unhealthy foods, like backyard BBQ and potato chips, etc. Of course, these taxes are regressive by nature, but then the benefits they will pay for will also be applied more directly toward low income people, at least at first. I think it is completely insane that our health insurance model is based on employers picking plans, instead of individuals picking plans. That isn't really a "market" solution at all, since the ultimate consumers have little direct input in the choice of the product they'll purchase and use. Yet it looks like we'll migrate from that to a government run plan, and not try the middle approach. This will be interesting for sure. __________________ Proud Winner of 2010 Leumas Award!

05-12-2009, 09:05 AM	#3 (permalink)
ojedad23 the oj guy Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: in Mlp headquarters,drinking orange juice Posts: 5,598 Thanks: 26 Thanked 93 Times in 72 Posts	Re: Buy Coke, Get Healthcare! Imagine if they started to super heavily tax musical instruments __________________

05-12-2009, 09:10 AM	#5 (permalink)
Drudeboy V.I.P. Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 7,135 Thanks: 78 Thanked 515 Times in 146 Posts	Re: Buy Coke, Get Healthcare! What you lot need is a National Health Service, free medical care for all., apart from the £7.20 per item for prescribed medication. However I don't have to pay that because I'm diabetic, so I get free prescriptions Mind you, looking at the state of the NHS....

05-12-2009, 09:22 AM	#8 (permalink)
SKATTERBRANE Banned Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 21,441 Thanks: 603 Thanked 549 Times in 185 Posts	Re: Buy Coke, Get Healthcare! I am in favor of socialized healthcare, as long as it is done right, and uses the best models availible, however, whenever OUR government does anything, it becomes bastardized and ends up costing MORE and accomplishing LESS. (and even MORE money ends up in the corrupt people's hands)

05-12-2009, 09:24 AM	#9 (permalink)
*Led Zep Fan* MLP Anchorman Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bethlehem, PA Posts: 19,692 Thanks: 458 Thanked 776 Times in 309 Posts	Re: Buy Coke, Get Healthcare! Deficits soar even with rosy Obama budget assumptions \| McClatchy My Way News - US to borrow 46 cents for every dollar spent They should think about paying this shit off before spending any more! __________________

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05-12-2009, 09:27 AM	#10 (permalink)
kernelofwisdom V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 5,414 Thanks: 144 Thanked 260 Times in 44 Posts	Re: Buy Coke, Get Healthcare! I think Americans are so poorly educated on the subject that many don't realize the compromises involved, and the government foul-ups there will be too. There are many words being used to cover up the idea, but cost containment will be achieved in part through rationing of care and denial of therapies that are too expensive to be worth the chance that it might save your life. Those on the cutting edge of developing these therapies understand that funding them in practice will be difficult, under public or private models. But government run healthcare does not mean get what you want when you want. It ain't burger king people! __________________ Proud Winner of 2010 Leumas Award!

05-12-2009, 09:28 AM	#11 (permalink)
Scooter2112 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Ohio, USA Posts: 11,940 Thanks: 132 Thanked 29 Times in 15 Posts	Re: Buy Coke, Get Healthcare! If government controls it, government can ration it. Careful what we wish for. __________________ Absofrigginlutely! ______________________________________________

05-12-2009, 12:18 PM	#14 (permalink)
needlespauls V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Boston area Posts: 5,066 Thanks: 61 Thanked 46 Times in 25 Posts	Re: Buy Coke, Get Healthcare! geo, I agree with you. The government needs to actually address and correct any and ALL of those issues you mentioned above. Not just tax all of us on rediculous things and in turn making it harder for us financially and potentially fatal for some of these business. Stupid stupid dicks!!! God forbid they clean up the actual crookedness and bad legislation with the health care industry. Politics as usual......... __________________ http://Myspace.com/ElPrivates

05-12-2009, 12:23 PM	#15 (permalink)
needlespauls V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Boston area Posts: 5,066 Thanks: 61 Thanked 46 Times in 25 Posts	Re: Buy Coke, Get Healthcare! People can sue anyone for anything, illegal immigrants can have access to the same quality as any actual US citizen and in some cases preferential treatment. Do you think they pay for this care? You know how many un-american bitches will whine in this country if thats put a stop on????? The good ole' "You''ll take it up the *ss and like it" mentallity that insurance companies have where its such a necessity....... I was in the hospital for a couple of days once and wasn't on insurance. It was for the Norwalk Virus, and the bill was like $2800!!! Things on the bill like "$100-Box of cleanex" and stuff. Bull shit!!!!!!!!!!! __________________ http://Myspace.com/ElPrivates

05-12-2009, 01:02 PM	#18 (permalink)
TeleDog V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8,773 Thanks: 78 Thanked 193 Times in 57 Posts	Re: Buy Coke, Get Healthcare! The problem with healthcare is mostly due to the unregulated activities of the HMO's. The rest is just covers and little things that could be solved by simple legislation. Banks and insurance companies have been protected by Federal Law like they're the precious babies of the government, there's little regulation and the interests of those institution, whatever they are and regardless of their actual effects on the people, are protected by extensive law and even legal precedent. Look at United States v. Wells, that's something that can scare anyone to death! HMO's simply take your money and deny the very same service they're supposed to offer. They have an army of lawyers and lobbyists to advance their interests, they demand the protection of those they help into office by giving away juicy campaign donations and other "charitable" contributions. I believe in free markets, they create a strong and competitive economies. But when the market is actually hurting the people it is supposed to help prosper, then you have a problem you need to take care of. __________________ “Teledog. Telecasterus Fanaticus Dogius". Got a Mac or iPod? Join our Apple Dogs group!

05-12-2009, 01:10 PM	#19 (permalink)
TeleDog V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8,773 Thanks: 78 Thanked 193 Times in 57 Posts	Re: Buy Coke, Get Healthcare! I do NOT want to turn this thread into an immigration thread, but I explained before that illegal immigrants have no rights to any kind of free care under law. No rights whatsoever. It is a billing problem, and there is plenty of testimony to that effect. I could tell you more, but like I said, I will not deviate this thread. You want entitlement? If you're an inmate in a prison, you receive free healthcare. Yup, just for the asking. You get coverage, full coverage, while you're in prison. So.... Want good healthcare? Turn into a felon. This is absurd and cannot continue, good people pay the price of unregulated frameworks designed to encourage greed. __________________ “Teledog. Telecasterus Fanaticus Dogius". Got a Mac or iPod? Join our Apple Dogs group!

05-12-2009, 01:26 PM	#21 (permalink)
*Led Zep Fan* MLP Anchorman Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bethlehem, PA Posts: 19,692 Thanks: 458 Thanked 776 Times in 309 Posts	Re: Buy Coke, Get Healthcare! Gov't runs April deficit for first time since '83 Trade deficit widens in March to $27.6 billion __________________

05-12-2009, 04:39 PM	#23 (permalink)
PraXis V.I.P. Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Planet X Posts: 19,107 Thanks: 352 Thanked 311 Times in 122 Posts	Re: Buy Coke, Get Healthcare! Doctors and insurance companies both got greedy. Doctors' offices started billing more and more, while the insurance premiums went up and nice profit margins were maintained.. then the insurance companies used whatever loopholes they could find to deny care and not pay for shit. If you pay, you should get it, period. The only way I want the government to interfere is to allow for people to purchase insurance across state lines, stopping frivolous lawsuits (unheard of in Europe) that drive up malpractice insurance and more prices-passed-onto-consumer, and SEVERELY fine anyone that uses emergency services in a non-emergency i.e. illegals. __________________ Hank Johnson (D-GA): "My fear is that the whole island will become so overly populated that it will tip over and capsize."

05-12-2009, 06:14 PM	#25 (permalink)
PraXis V.I.P. Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Planet X Posts: 19,107 Thanks: 352 Thanked 311 Times in 122 Posts	Re: Buy Coke, Get Healthcare! There was a time when insurance was affordable. We have excellent care, it's just that access is more difficult due to the prices. I know people that get second and even third jobs, just to buy insurance (if their primary employer does not provide it). Health care is insanely expensive to just provide for everyone, especially since our wars in the M.E. are not ending any time soon and we have millions of illegals... and 43% of our citizens don't pay income taxes... it's just unsustainable. Bottom line, for those who can afford it, it's great. The wait times are non-existent and we get our care, medicine, etc.. so what has to happen to make it more affordable, yet keeps the doctor/patient relationship private? I've read the French have excellent care, and it does not cost them much (I think 1% of your income is taxed towards it)... but then again, the average doctor makes 1/3 the salary of what American doctors make, and it's not as difficult or expensive to get through medical school... I don't know about you... but I'm not going to bust my ass for 12 years (college + med school + residency) to make 50k. The French also do not have the insane malpractice lawsuits that we have in America. People in this country are greedy. They always want the quick buck, and at any given time, there is a lawyer to help them get it. __________________ Hank Johnson (D-GA): "My fear is that the whole island will become so overly populated that it will tip over and capsize."

05-12-2009, 07:47 PM	#26 (permalink)
TeleDog V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8,773 Thanks: 78 Thanked 193 Times in 57 Posts	Re: Buy Coke, Get Healthcare! It's a vicious cycle. Education, healthcare, it's all related. The doctor gets his MD and looks at tens of thousands in student loans. Like every other person, the doctor also has to live, and buy books, go to seminars, it's a profession that demands lots from the individual. It's not greed to find a way to pay off your debt, I think. It's very hard to say that a doctor would voluntarily accept a less paying job without any incentives to promote public service. Doctors are human too! The "free market" is out of control turning a system that's proven to grow the economy when regulated just enough to keep it right on track into one that's destroying the very economy that sustains it. But the HMOs, man, they have people employed not to objectively evaluate claims but to DENY them! They FIND excuses, loopholes in the law, and if you want to get your claim accepted you have to sue. When you sue you're effectively driving up the cost for everyone because those legal fees they are forced to pay turned into price increases for the customers. You know, I don't ask for help from the government in any way, but if I buy a service I DEMAND the service I paid for, so when the HMOs laugh in your face and deny your valid claim, for a basic service, such conduct should be forbidden by the law. Education reform, tax reform, healthcare reform, research and technology, can't have one without the other. I believe banks and insurance companies must be protected because they keep the economy going, but protection is different than being an accomplice to whatever shady thing they decide to perpetrate on the American people. And that's what we have today, a framework of law that protects financial entities more than it protects the people! __________________ “Teledog. Telecasterus Fanaticus Dogius". Got a Mac or iPod? Join our Apple Dogs group!

05-12-2009, 08:05 PM	#27 (permalink)
kernelofwisdom V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 5,414 Thanks: 144 Thanked 260 Times in 44 Posts	Re: Buy Coke, Get Healthcare! There's more to it than HMO greed, as many have pointed out. It's complicated. Remember, the HMO is trying to provide a competitive product to EMPLOYERS (not you the covered employee). If they screw the employees too much while taking nothing but profit, the employer will shift providers. So, the screwing has to be shared with your employer to work. It's a reason I think employer based health care is nonsensical. Our company is self-insured with stop-loss insurance. The health insurance company we have is an administrator, with contracts in place to handle provider payments, etc., but we bear the actual costs of health care subject to reinsurance maximums. Years ago when I was general counsel I also was over administration and that included health care. So, in a denial of payment scenario, the ultimate appeal could and sometimes did land in my lap. In that case, my job was to enforce the plan in a balanced manner. Letting things through that were not in the plan violated a fiduciary duty to other plan members and also the company and its shareholders. So, there were limits. Having said that, thankfully I don't do that anymore because the cases that get to that level are sad cases, and if you were depending on me to reduce health care costs by rejecting treatments, you'd be making a bad choice. Yet I saw first hand how those situations are difficult, even if they are routinely considered to be mercenary in nature at the final decision level. The covered individual wants to be covered period because they cannot afford, or do not want to make the sacrifice to afford, the disputed care item. But just approving everything runs the plan cost up, is unfair to the other participants in the system, and blows budgets. Eventually, the cost has to be paid by somebody. Right now that somebody is often your employer, and trust me, your employer hates paying medical premiums. So when that HMO is "screwing" you, remember those savings will be presented to your employer as the HMO keeping plan costs down. Your employer then decides if those savings are worth it in light of employee complaints. In a fully insured scenario, it is the HMO's call, but they have to face those decisions come contract renewal time. It is generally pretty clear, too, when HMO's present to you which are going to be more hard-nosed. For an administrator, we wanted somebody middle of the road, but back then times were easier. I will say something else about the litigation angle. First, good luck filing a lawsuit if your plan screws you. The laws are quite tough and complicated and most lawyers don't want to touch it, unless you're paying cash. The system is on the side of the providers in that case. Second, for malpractice, many states have reformed the system over the years, and in NC you cannot file a lawsuit for malpractice without a doctor certifying the merits of the lawsuit. Yet, for the all the complaining people do, many, MANY, MANY more people wish they could file lawsuits each year than lawyers are willing to take. Maybe we got involved in 10% of the "cases" people brought, something like that. I'm not denying there is bogus litigation, but also we generally are a society that believes when something, anything, goes wrong, we should get a check. And doctors generally believe they should never be sued. __________________ Proud Winner of 2010 Leumas Award!

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