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Unread 06-15-2013, 02:51 AM   #121 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus View Post
Is it the Japanese who have the proverb, "Never interrupt an enemy in the middle of making a mistake"?

I made the argument elsewhere, about six years ago, for the idea of maintaining a foment between Shia and Sunni, because so long as they're aiming at each other they're not aiming at us. Callous? Yes. Prudent. Perhaps; certainly more prudent than wadaing in with sleeves rolled up, imo.

As for equality of cultures, there's no such thing. We all seem to know that our own culture is better than any others, and never ponder the significance of that fact.

That was Tzun Tzu, famous Chinese general who wrote "The Art of War"


Anyway, nice diversion from the NSA crap.

Domestic problems? Look elsewhere!
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Unread 06-16-2013, 06:40 AM   #122 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus View Post
Is it the Japanese who have the proverb, "Never interrupt an enemy in the middle of making a mistake"?

I made the argument elsewhere, about six years ago, for the idea of maintaining a foment between Shia and Sunni, because so long as they're aiming at each other they're not aiming at us. Callous? Yes. Prudent. Perhaps; certainly more prudent than wadaing in with sleeves rolled up, imo.

As for equality of cultures, there's no such thing. We all seem to know that our own culture is better than any others, and never ponder the significance of that fact.
"Never interrupt an enemy in the middle of making a mistake"

~Napoleon Bonaparte

Realpolitik is what's required in these situations.

Realpolitik - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Unread 06-16-2013, 06:52 AM   #123 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

.. Well it appears that the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is now on our side (edit: or we are on theirs and the jihadi's) against
Assad as Morsi has broken diplomatic relations with Syria and publicly denounced the government to a cheering crowd.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...ies-with-syria


Egyptian president cuts ties with Syria and calls for no-fly zone over country

Mohamed Morsi also urges Hezbollah to pull out and pledges to organise urgent summit of Arab and Islamist states

Egyptian president cuts ties with Syria and calls for no-fly zone over country

Mohamed Morsi also urges Hezbollah to pull out and pledges to organise urgent summit of Arab and Islamist states

Reuters in Cairo
guardian.co.uk, Saturday 15 June 2013 17.27 EDT

Mohamed Morsi cuts ties to Syria

Egyptian president Mohamed Morsi said he had cut all diplomatic ties with Damascus on Saturday and called for a no-fly zone over Syria, pitching the most populous Arab state firmly against Bashar al-Assad.

Addressing a rally called by Sunni Muslim clerics in Cairo, Morsi said: "We decided today to entirely break off relations with Syria and with the current Syrian regime."

He also warned Assad's allies in the Iranian-backed Lebanese Shia militia Hezbollah to pull back from fighting in Syria.

"We stand against Hezbollah in its aggression against the Syrian people," Morsi said.

"Hezbollah must leave Syria – these are serious words. There is no space or place for Hezbollah in Syria."
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Unread 06-16-2013, 06:53 AM   #124 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

Whoever it was, we'd do well to take heed of the advice. Shame we won't, apparently.

I'm getting tired of American governments burning my tax dollars up in god-forsaken lands trying to make people be like us.
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Unread 06-16-2013, 06:54 AM   #125 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

Quote:
Originally Posted by HenryHill View Post
Strong ally of Iran; Friend of our Enemy.

Where do you think the chemicals came from?

IRAQ.

That's why we never found them there.


The report I read of the convoy from Iraq to Syria before we attacked was quickly pulled from the public.

But I remember....


ETA: A taste: Iraq Chemical Weapons Moved to Syria Before 2003 Invasion? | USNI Blog

Iraq's WMD Secreted in Syria, Sada Says - The New York Sun
I remember staying home to watch Colin Powell's presentation to the UN to justify the US invasion of Iraq. One of the key points of his justification was all of the satellite images of mobile bio-weapons labs spread throughout the country. Shocked I was, shocked I tell you, when I learned that Saddam had such things. Of course post invasion, these things were discovered to be mobile weather stations and other innocuous things, and not bio-weapons labs at all.

So now you're telling me that the same super duper satellite technology that could detect single 18 wheelers in the middle of nowhere was unable to detect convoys of trucks rolling down major roadways into Syria as they carried WMDs before Iraq 2: 'Lectric Bugaloo started.

Really?!? I was born at night, but it wasn't last night.

Not buying it.
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Unread 06-16-2013, 07:06 AM   #126 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

.. Man I felt bad they ruined Powell with that BS ..
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Unread 06-16-2013, 08:00 AM   #127 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand Toad View Post
I'm wondering what the Russians are going to do?
GT, brings up a good point. I read an article about the Russian Gov. selling MIGs to Assad's Regime as Assad continues to wage war on his people.
Pretty interesting article:

Russia to sell MiG jet fighters to Syria, jet maker says - CBS News

From the article:
"Russia's MiG aircraft maker said Friday it plans to sign a new agreement to ship at least 10 fighter jets to Syria, a move that comes amid international criticism of earlier Russian weapons deals with Syrian President Bashar Assad's regime.

MiG's director general, Sergei Korotkov, said a Syrian delegation was in Moscow to discuss the details of a new contract for the delivery of MiG-29 M/M2 fighters. In remarks carried by Russian news agencies, he said Syria wants to buy "more than 10" such fighters, but wouldn't give the exact number.

Russia has said it's only providing Assad with weapons intended to protect Syria from a foreign invasion, such as air defense missile systems. It has claimed it is not delivering weapons that could be used in Syria's two-year civil war, which has killed more 70,000 people and sent millions fleeing the country."

Cannot imagine what the Russian Government is thinking other than profiting from this while escalating an already horrible situation. I am pretty sure the US Government's decision to provide arms to the Syrian rebels had more to do with this than Assad gassing rebels. I haven't stayed abreast of the developments going on over there much recently but thought the article was interesting.
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Unread 06-16-2013, 08:25 AM   #128 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

.. If there is a NATO or some sort coalition backed no fly zone created ..
.. Those planes will be scrap metal if they take flight .. no doubt.

.. What Carrier is nearby ?
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Unread 06-16-2013, 08:29 AM   #129 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

.. only Carrier news that popped up ..

Russia

Russia’s Only Aircraft Carrier Syria Bound?

Russia will deploy its only heavy aircraft carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov, to the Mediterranean Sea by the end of 2013, a Russian military official announced earlier this week.

Discussing the planned deployment, Navy Commander Adm. Viktor Chirkov told Interfax,

“The cruiser will complete its planned maintenance at the end of the year. It is expected to put out and perform a number of missions in an offshore oceanic zone as part of a group. Northern Fleet naval pilots will perform a number of missions on board this cruiser in the long-range mission.”

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Unread 06-16-2013, 08:43 AM   #130 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackie View Post
.. only Carrier news that popped up ..

Russia

Russia’s Only Aircraft Carrier Syria Bound?

Russia will deploy its only heavy aircraft carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov, to the Mediterranean Sea by the end of 2013, a Russian military official announced earlier this week.

Discussing the planned deployment, Navy Commander Adm. Viktor Chirkov told Interfax,

“The cruiser will complete its planned maintenance at the end of the year. It is expected to put out and perform a number of missions in an offshore oceanic zone as part of a group. Northern Fleet naval pilots will perform a number of missions on board this cruiser in the long-range mission.”

Proxy war?
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Unread 06-16-2013, 12:05 PM   #131 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

Every rebel will as a matter of course be required to pass a universal background check before receiving said weapon and ammunition.
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Unread 06-16-2013, 12:38 PM   #132 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

so.. we send weapons to the rebels, Russia wants to sell Assad airplanes.. and Iran will be sending in the Revolutionary Guard..

Iran to send 4,000 troops to aid President Assad forces in Syria - Middle East - World - The Independent

interesting times ahead indeed..
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Unread 06-16-2013, 12:43 PM   #133 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

Israel will also move in assets... but of what kind?

How bad can things go?

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Unread 06-16-2013, 12:50 PM   #134 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

.. We must have a Carrier nearby .. but I can't find any info ..
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Unread 06-16-2013, 02:50 PM   #135 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

Sixth Fleet area

USS Truman
2002

Still on patrol 2010

Area of Operations:

Mediterranean Sea.

Headquarters:

Naples, Italy.

Task Force 60:

Task Force 60 is Sixth Fleet's Battle Force. It is composed of one or more aircraft carriers, each with an accompanying complement of approximately six cruisers and destroyers. On board the aircraft carrier is an air wing of 65 - 85 aircraft. The air wing is the primary striking arm of the Battle Force, and includes attack, fighter, anti-submarine, and reconnaissance aircraft. Ships accompanying the carrier serve as defensive and offensive platforms with duties involving anti-air, surface and submarine warfare. In addition to its major role of controlling the seas, the Battle Force can also project its power over land.

Task Force 61:

Task Force 61 is the Mediterranean Amphibious Ready Group (MARG). It is composed of approximately three amphibious ships and their embarked landing craft. From these ships, United States Marine ground forces can move ashore by sea and air in amphibious assault of emergency evacuation missions. Once ashore, the ships of Task Force 61 logistically support the ground forces, until the objective of the landing has been accomplished, and the Marine Forces return to the ships.

Task Force 62:

Task Force 62 is the combat-ready ground force composed of a Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) of approximately 1,800 Marines. Transported in Task Force 61 ships, the MEU is equipped with armor, artillery, and transport helicopters that enable it to conduct operations ashore, or evacuate civilians from troubled areas.

Task Force 63:

Task Force 63 is the Logistics Force. Composed of oilers, provision ships, and repair ships, its mission is the delivery of supplies at sea, and effecting repairs to other ships and equipment of the Fleet.

Task Force 64:

Task Force 64 was the SSBN Force assigned to COMSIXTHFL. Until the end of the 1970th these ships were homeported in Rota, Spain.
In times of war the COMSIXTHFL had not had direct influence on the selection of the targets that would have been attacked by the SSBNs. These targets were annually chosen by the NATO's Nuclear Target Planning Group.

Task Force 66/69:

Task Force 66/69 is responsible for planning and coordinating area submarine and anti-submarine warfare operations in the Mediterranean. Specifically, Task Force 69 is composed of attack submarines that provide capability to destroy enemy surface ships and submarines, as well as protect other Sixth Fleet ships from attack.

Task Force 67:Task Force 67 is composed of land-based maritime patrol aircraft. These aircraft operate over the waters of the Mediterranean in anti- submarine, reconnaissance, surveillance, and mining roles.
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Unread 06-16-2013, 02:54 PM   #136 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus View Post
Whoever it was, we'd do well to take heed of the advice. Shame we won't, apparently.

I'm getting tired of American governments burning my tax dollars up in god-forsaken lands trying to make people be like us.
It's about oil and hegemony - more money and power for the few who already have the money and power.

Exporting freedom, and making them more like us, has fvck all to do with it.
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Unread 06-16-2013, 03:37 PM   #137 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

All countries..
Money..Power..Land..Control...

Religion..Politics..Humanity..are covers for the same basic reason since cavemen..

War..

..so easy a caveman can do it...
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Unread 06-16-2013, 03:59 PM   #138 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

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Originally Posted by es345guy View Post
as Assad continues to wage war on his people.
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Unread 06-16-2013, 04:08 PM   #139 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

not knowing what to do and putting one toe in the water can only inflate the situation
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Unread 06-16-2013, 07:47 PM   #140 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

.. Another take on Egypt and Syria ..

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT

Egypt seen to give nod toward jihadis on Syria

By HAMZA HENDAWI
Associated Press

CAIRO (AP) -- Under Hosni Mubarak's rule, Egypt's authorities took a tough line on Egyptians coming home after waging "jihad" in places like Afghanistan, Chechnya or the Balkans, fearing they would bring back extremist ideology, combat experience and a thirst for regime change. In most cases, they were imprisoned and tortured.

But after Mubarak's overthrow and his replacement by an elected Islamist president, jihad has gained a degree of legitimacy in Egypt, and the country has become a source of fighters heading to the war in Syria.

Egyptian militants are known to have been travelling to Syria to fight alongside Sunni rebels for more than year - but their movements were done quietly. But in recent days, a string of clerics have called for jihad in Syria, with some calling for volunteers to go fight against President Bashar Assad's regime.

On Saturday, Morsi attended a rally by hard-line clerics who have called for jihad and spoke before a cheering crowd at a Cairo stadium, mainly Islamists. Waving a flag of Egypt and the Syrian opposition, he ripped into the Syrian regime, announced Egypt was cutting ties with Damascus and denounced Lebanon's Shiite Hezbollah guerrillas for fighting alongside Assad's forces.

Clerics at the rally urged Morsi to back their calls for jihad to support rebels. Morsi did not address their calls and did not mention jihad. But his appearance was seen as in implicit backing of the clerics' message. It came after a senior presidential aide last week said that while Egypt was not encouraging citizens to travel to Syria to help rebels, they were free to do so and the state would take no action against them.

Khalil el-Anani, an Egyptian expert on Islamist groups, called the move "Morsi's endorsement of jihad in Syria" and warned it was "a strategic mistake that will create a new Afghanistan in the Middle East."

"He is pushing Egypt into a sectarian war in which we have no interest," he said.

The new tone in Egypt risks fueling the flow of Egyptian jihadi fighters to Syria, where the conflict is already increasingly defined by the sectarian divide, with the mostly Sunni rebels fighting a regime rooted in the minority Alawite sect, an off-shoot of Shiite Islam, and backed by Shiite Iran and Hezbollah.

The conflict is also becoming more regional after Hezbollah intervened to help Assad defeat rebels in a strategic western town this month. Since then, hard-liners around the region have hiked calls for Sunnis to join the rebels in the fight. There are already believed to be several thousand foreign fighters among the rebel ranks, largely Islamist extremists some with al-Qaida ties.

The United States last week hardened its own position on Assad's regime, agreeing to provide the rebels with lethal weapons.

Damascus on Sunday lashed out at Morsi for his speech a day earlier, saying he "joins a choir of conspiracy and incitement led by the United States and Israel against Syria."

It accused him of endorsing calls by hardline clerics for people to fight in Syria.

Egypt's powerful military also seemed to distance itself from Morsi speech, in which he pledged that Egypt's government and military are behind the struggle of the Syrian people against Assad.

On Sunday, the state news agency quoted an unidentified military official underlining that "the Egyptian army will not interfere in the internal affairs of other countries. It will not be dragged or be used in any of the regional struggles."

There are no official figures on how many Egyptians have gone to Syria to fight. Security officials monitoring the movement of militants estimate as many as 2,500 have gone, and their numbers are likely to significantly pick up after Hezbollah's intervention.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media.

Organizations associated with Egypt's ultraconservative Salafi movement are believed to help organize movements for Egyptians to Syria. Islamist websites have reported that up to several dozen Egyptians have been killed while fighting in Syria the past two years, though the number has not been independently confirmed. The conflict, now in its third year, has killed nearly 93,000 people, according to new figures released by the United Nations.

Under Mubarak's 29-year rule, Egypt was a major Mideast bulwark against religious militancy. Mubarak closely cooperated with the United States and other Western nations in the hunt for extremists wanted in connection with terror attacks and dismantling the financial networks for militant groups. His regime was also notorious for rights abuses and torture against militants and other opponents

In the 1990s, militants who gained combat experience fighting the Russians in Afghanistan staged an anti-government insurgency that took the lives of more than 1,000 people, mostly civilians. Mubarak's security forces crushed the insurgency, and in the years that followed the groups involved renounced violence, though they maintained a hard-line ideology.

The fall of Mubarak in early 2011 and Morsi's election nearly a year ago allowed many of the former militants to come in from the cold.

Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood, from which he hails, gets key backing from one of the main former Islamic militant groups, Gamaa Islamiya, as well as from several political parties of the Salafi movement.

A senior official at the Interior Ministry, which is in charge of police and internal security, said the names of at least 3,000 militants have in recent months been removed from the wanted list posted at the country's points of entry over the past two years.

Many of the 3,000 have since Morsi taken office returned to Egypt from exile and are now freely participating in the country's Islamist-dominated politics, said the official.

Those who returned home included individuals tried and convicted in connection to the 1981 assassination of President Anwar Sadat, the attempted assassination against Mubarak in Ethiopia in 1995 or militants who have been involved in wars abroad, said the official, who also spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media.

Morsi's turning up the heat on Assad's regime appeared to be a concession to his ultraconservative allies, who have been unhappy with his government's moves to improve ties with Shiite Iran, Assad's main regional backer.

It also strengthens their backing for him ahead of giant anti-Morsi demonstrations planned by his opponents on June 30.

"This is a terrible idea," said Michael W. Hanna, an Egypt expert from the New York-based Century Foundation. "He is refocusing the anger of Egyptians over his policies away toward foreign issues instead of the domestic mess he is presiding over at home."

The security official said there are worries in the security establishment that sanctioning travel to Syria for Egyptians could later embolden jihadi groups to set up their training camps and political parties to create their own militias. Armed militant groups have become increasingly active in lawless parts of the Sinai Peninsula, where there has been a flood of weapons smuggled from Libya.

The change in Egypt's approach has not gone unnoticed in the West.

Last week, Germany's Interior Ministry issued its 2012 report on domestic security in which it noted an increase in the travel to Egypt by suspected Islamic extremists, ostensibly because they wanted to live in Muslim countries or study Arabic but in some specific cases may have been really interested in joining jihadi training camps.

The report doesn't specify where these training camps are located, whether in Egypt or elsewhere in the Middle East, North Africa or South Asia.
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Unread 06-16-2013, 11:15 PM   #141 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackie View Post
.. only Carrier news that popped up ..

Russia

Russias Only Aircraft Carrier Syria Bound?

Russia will deploy its only heavy aircraft carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov, to the Mediterranean Sea by the end of 2013, a Russian military official announced earlier this week.

Discussing the planned deployment, Navy Commander Adm. Viktor Chirkov told Interfax,

The cruiser will complete its planned maintenance at the end of the year. It is expected to put out and perform a number of missions in an offshore oceanic zone as part of a group. Northern Fleet naval pilots will perform a number of missions on board this cruiser in the long-range mission.

Our only carrier in the region is on the wrong side of the Arabian Peninsula.
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Unread 06-16-2013, 11:16 PM   #142 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

Smoke and mirrors maybe
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Unread 06-17-2013, 09:27 AM   #143 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

Now the shit is going to hit the fan


US 'backed plan to launch chemical weapon attack on Syria, blame it on Assad govt': Report
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Unread 06-17-2013, 09:33 AM   #144 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

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Not that I can't see that, but Yahoo using Alex Jones as their source?
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Unread 06-17-2013, 09:34 AM   #145 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

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That would never happen. Never ever. Ever.
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Unread 06-17-2013, 09:45 AM   #146 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

Yeah I know, but I certainly believe that there's some truth in there, it doesn't surprise me anymore. I think it's telling that a 6 month old article is surfacing again, who do you believe anymore?
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Unread 06-17-2013, 09:55 AM   #147 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

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Originally Posted by Jaxx View Post
Not that I can't see that, but Yahoo using Alex Jones as their source?
I heard Miss Cleo was reporting the same thing.

Sounds legit.
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Unread 06-17-2013, 10:38 AM   #148 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

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Originally Posted by Jaxx View Post
Not that I can't see that, but Yahoo using Alex Jones as their source?
I'm not so sure who Alex Jones really works for . . .
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Unread 06-17-2013, 01:32 PM   #149 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

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Originally Posted by es345guy View Post
GT, brings up a good point. I read an article about the Russian Gov. selling MIGs to Assad's Regime as Assad continues to wage war on his people.
Pretty interesting article:

Russia to sell MiG jet fighters to Syria, jet maker says - CBS News

From the article:
"Russia's MiG aircraft maker said Friday it plans to sign a new agreement to ship at least 10 fighter jets to Syria, a move that comes amid international criticism of earlier Russian weapons deals with Syrian President Bashar Assad's regime.

MiG's director general, Sergei Korotkov, said a Syrian delegation was in Moscow to discuss the details of a new contract for the delivery of MiG-29 M/M2 fighters. In remarks carried by Russian news agencies, he said Syria wants to buy "more than 10" such fighters, but wouldn't give the exact number.
Decent quality live-fire targets. You won't be finding Russian pilots behind the yolk, over Syrian territory.

Quote:
Russia has said it's only providing Assad with weapons intended to protect Syria from a foreign invasion, such as air defense missile systems. It has claimed it is not delivering weapons that could be used in Syria's two-year civil war, which has killed more 70,000 people and sent millions fleeing the country."

Cannot imagine what the Russian Government is thinking other than profiting from this while escalating an already horrible situation.
I can imagine the Russians wanting to keep a cover on 40+ years of naughtiness. During the cold war, the Soviets established a naval base in Tartus. The Soviet's forgave about 75% (around $10B) of the debt Syria owed them. That established Soviet Carte Blanche to do whatever the f*ck they wanted to do in, out of and through Syria. If you look at the history of Soviet/Russia vs US proxy wars, and anti-American activities, in the region you will find Russian fingerprints everywhere and Russian behavior closely following the doctrine of my "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Despite the passage of time and "post-soviet-era" relations, there are many, many skeletons they would prefer to keep in the closet. Heaven forbid they (non-Soviet/Russian interests) find evidence of chemical weapons of Russian origin.

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I am pretty sure the US Government's decision to provide arms to the Syrian rebels had more to do with this than Assad gassing rebels.
The US action has nothing to do with Assad's use of chem weapons. The use of such weapons, sadly, is just an excuse to do "something." Unfortunately, that "something" has nothing to do with right and/or wrong as it relates to the Syrian people.
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Unread 06-17-2013, 07:21 PM   #150 (permalink)
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Re: U.S. Is Said to Plan to Send Weapons to Syrian Rebels

Trust Russians at your own risk. All I'm gonna say for the time being.
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