Witches

[Howard2k]

Originally Posted by mudfinger

And, behind door #3? "All religions contain a spark of the Divine"

Even Scientology? WBC?

[mudfinger]

Originally Posted by Howard2k

Even Scientology? WBC?

Scientology, for sure. I've spent many hours talking with a good friend of mine, who's a Scientologist, about the nature of Spirit and Matter. That's a fundamental concept in that religion.

WBC, they're Christians, right? I see all those "God Hates Fag" signs, so I'm pretty sure they belive in some kinda God.

EDIT: "Spark of the Divine" isn't exactly the same thing as being perfect. I'm not sure that any religion qualifies for THAT.

[Mindfrigg]

Originally Posted by TOMMYTHUNDERS

disagree. these things are products of individual biochemistry, life experiences, and mental function. there will come a day when these traits can be quantified and predicted.

Originally Posted by mudfinger

Oh, so you DO believe in prophecy.

Did anybody ever read Asimov's 'Foundation' trilogy? A great premise.
A mathemetician figures a formula that predicts en masse human behaviour (prophecy) and establishes a 'Foundation' (library) to store all information against the inevitable collapse of 'The Empire'.
What was not predictable was a mutation called'The Mule' a freakish psychic Emperor. It was however accounted for. Great sci-fi. Too bad nobody has chosen it for a film version.

[mudfinger]

Originally Posted by Mindfrigg

Did anybody ever read Asimov's 'Foundation' trilogy? A great premise.
A mathemetician figures a formula that predicts en masse human behaviour (prophecy) and establishes a 'Foundation' (library) to store all information against the inevitable collapse of 'The Empire'.
What was not predictable was a mutation called'The Mule' a freakish psychic Emperor. It was however accounted for. Great sci-fi. Too bad nobody has chosen it for a film version.

Hollywood is too busy with the remake of "Red Dawn"

Can't wait until they redo "The Craft", or even worse, "The Witches of Eastwick"

[Caoimhin]

Looks like Rob Zombie is creating a new movie, Lords of Salem.

From what I understand about it some radio DJ plays a record on air and it happens to be some kind of spell or hidden message in it and brings back witches from the dead that were killed during the trials.

[Joeydego]

witchcraft=religion=

[Skintaster]

Originally Posted by KR88

Looks like Rob Zombie is creating a new movie, Lords of Salem.

From what I understand about it some radio DJ plays a record on air and it happens to be some kind of spell or hidden message in it and brings back witches from the dead that were killed during the trials.

Guess he decided to expand on his video.

YouTube - Rob Zombie - Lords Of Salem

YouTube - Rob Zombie - Lords Of Salem

[Mindfrigg]

Originally Posted by KR88

Looks like Rob Zombie is creating a new movie, Lords of Salem.

From what I understand about it some radio DJ plays a record on air and it happens to be some kind of spell or hidden message in it and brings back witches from the dead that were killed during the trials.

It's that f**king backwards masking!

[Skintaster]

Originally Posted by Joeydego

witchcraft=religion=

Actually, while "witchcraft" CAN = religion, it doesn't automatically. There are fundamental differences. So unless it's against forum rules to talk about any esoteric system at all, including the history of mankind, I don't see how this discussion breaks that rule.

Besides, people have kept this pretty civil so far.

[Howard2k]

Originally Posted by mudfinger

Scientology, for sure. I've spent many hours talking with a good friend of mine, who's a Scientologist, about the nature of Spirit and Matter. That's a fundamental concept in that religion.

WBC, they're Christians, right? I see all those "God Hates Fag" signs, so I'm pretty sure they belive in some kinda God.

EDIT: "Spark of the Divine" isn't exactly the same thing as being perfect. I'm not sure that any religion qualifies for THAT.

I applaud your consistency!

[Mindfrigg]

I suffered from OCD as a teen, and I saw elements of ritualised behaviour of that kind in organized religion. Repetitive ritual to stem some kind of unspecified disaster.
Think about it.
Even the founders of religion were only human. All kinds of systems arose out of human flaws.
Look at the Spartans. Institutionalized pedophilia.
Aztecs. Institutionalized cannibalism.

[TOMMYTHUNDERS]

You Tube

You Tube

[TOMMYTHUNDERS]

Tragedy - Crucifier - YouTube

Tragedy - Crucifier - YouTube

[Joeydego]

Originally Posted by Skintaster

Actually, while "witchcraft" CAN = religion, it doesn't automatically. There are fundamental differences. So unless it's against forum rules to talk about any esoteric system at all, including the history of mankind, I don't see how this discussion breaks that rule.

Besides, people have kept this pretty civil so far.

I will reply via PM.

[Mindfrigg]

Sorry, I said the 'R' word.

I'll stifle!

Actually we should refer to them as 'schools of philosophy' or 'models of cosmology'. Then maybe nobody gets butt-hurt.

I'm not talking about core beliefs or holy texts here. I mean institutions and organizations.
Saw an interview on Carson with George Carlin,( years ago of course) and he was saying how he could get along with almost anybody on a one to one basis, but when it came to a group or organization, there was suddenly an agenda and criteria to include or exclude people, and that's where the problem arose.
I agree with that.

[mudfinger]

Originally Posted by Mindfrigg

I suffered from OCD as a teen, and I saw elements of ritualised behaviour of that kind in organized religion. Repetitive ritual to stem some kind of unspecified disaster.
Think about it.
Even the founders of religion were only human. All kinds of systems arose out of human flaws.
Look at the Spartans. Institutionalized pedophilia.
Aztecs. Institutionalized cannibalism.

I find that certain rituals calm my mind, and help to focus my awareness on the moment, something I find very useful as a musician. Strangely, the older I get, the less complex and lengthy those rituals become...

On the other hand, I've said before that my entire life is a ritual, carefully designed to serve my music.

[Skintaster]

The tags on this thread are priceless.

[mudfinger]

Originally Posted by Skintaster

The tags on this thread are priceless.

"biccas hatin' wiccas" is my favorite, whoever tagged that should stand up and take credit for his comic genius!

[Thumpalumpacus]

[

Originally Posted by Skintaster

Ritual (of all kinds) is one of the ways that humans can program themselves (or be programmed)... So I can see how "magic" applied to oneself might produce certain results... At least in the subjective universe of the believer.

In this iteration, sure. The mind is a powerful thing, and the placebo effect is a real thing. But the idea that it is an actual, objective phenomena isn't worth my time.

Originally Posted by geochem1st

You seem to miss the point again along with many. You are caught up in the 'hollywood' version of scene, rather than the reality and practical aspects of folk knowledge.... when you boil it all down and eliminate the smoke and mirrors, remove the charlatans, mumbo jumbo and wannabe's... we are left with folk knowledge, which has a history far longer than the written word.

Actually, I'm not missing the point; I draw a distinction between folk knowledge and hokum. I'm replying to the OP: "Do you believe in witches or witchcraft, vampires(not the dracula kind) or people with "The Gift"?"

Calling this stuff "folk knowledge" misses the point that they lack objective evidence. Because of that, the appellation "knowledge" is a misnomer. Now, it's been argued that "vampires" are really just cannibals, and "witches" are really just priestesses, but really, if that's all they are, why not call them those things -- unless you accept the other baggage? Use the language accurately, and then get back to me about how I'm "missing the point."

Myself, I prefer the word bullshit. Woo is short and sweet, too.

Originally Posted by Mindfrigg

Flat out dismissal of any subject we haven't studied is not knowledge or research.
It's conservative thinking. One sometimes argues it's reasoning, but that's how we mostly arrive at the 'presumptious assumption'.

Of course we haven't studied vampires. Have you stopped and asked yourself why?

I have no problem with meditation, prayer (which done well is simply meditation as well, I think), runner's highs, studying philosophy, sex, jazz, hunting, or any of a number of other activities which lift us out of the mundane and into another frame of reference. I don't think there's much value in acribing mystical qualities to what is a pretty comprehensible phenomenon of humans preferring different mental states at different times.

Originally Posted by mudfinger

Scientology, for sure. I've spent many hours talking with a good friend of mine, who's a Scientologist, about the nature of Spirit and Matter. That's a fundamental concept in that religion.

WBC, they're Christians, right? I see all those "God Hates Fag" signs, so I'm pretty sure they belive in some kinda God.

The obvious inference to be drawn is that the "Divine" is a human construct. Scientology, and all other religions, are human constructs. Belief in a god doesn't mean that the god exists. It only means that the belief exists.

*******

Also, the tagger who put up "mlp mystical poser club" -- why hide in the bushes and snipe?

[Joeydego]

FTR, I've tagged nothing in this thread

[Mindfrigg]

Originally Posted by mudfinger

"biccas hatin' wiccas" is my favorite, whoever tagged that should stand up and take credit for his comic genius!

yer velcome!

[Mindfrigg]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

[




I have no problem with meditation, prayer (which done well is simply meditation as well, I think), runner's highs, studying philosophy, sex, jazz, hunting, or any of a number of other activities which lift us out of the mundane and into another frame of reference. I don't think there's much value in acribing mystical qualities to what is a pretty comprehensible phenomenon of humans preferring different mental states at different times.
?

Depends on your definition of mystic doesn't it?

[/QUOTE]Also, the tagger who put up "mlp mystical poser club" -- why hide in the bushes and snipe?[/QUOTE]

See? Now why's we got to go and get all nasty whenever we disagree? Sounds like insecurity to me.

[mudfinger]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

"witches" are really just priestesses, but really, if that's all they are, why not call them those things

I have no problem with meditation, prayer (which done well is simply meditation as well, I think), runner's highs, studying philosophy, sex, jazz, hunting, or any of a number of other activities which lift us out of the mundane and into another frame of reference. I don't think there's much value in acribing mystical qualities to what is a pretty comprehensible phenomenon of humans preferring different mental states at different times.

The obvious inference to be drawn is that the "Divine" is a human construct. Scientology, and all other religions, are human constructs. Belief in a god doesn't mean that the god exists. It only means that the belief exists.

Sleep well, Thump? Glad you made it to the party!

The witches I know and respect could accurately be described as priestesses, but the very term itself is considered an insult, as it is the diminutive form of "priest", and implies, as I've been told, subjection to patriarchal values and social systems.

I can only answer subjectively about the value of prayer over a good endorphin rush after running; the former experience creates a more profound effect than the latter, and that additional profundity is directly related to my belief in the Diety to whom I pray. For me, it's better than running.

As a corollary, having sex with some random skank is plenty fun, but the experiences I've had with women I love deeply are much more satisfying, even as memories. That's my consciousness interacting with an objective event, I think you'll agree.

I think we also both agree that all religions are human constructs, but I don't agree that religion=God. Your lack of belief in God doesn't mean that God doesn't exist.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by Mindfrigg

Depends on your definition of mystic doesn't it?

I go with the English language. You?

Originally Posted by OED

Definition of mystic

noun:

a person who seeks by contemplation and self-surrender to obtain unity with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or who believes in the spiritual apprehension of truths that are beyond the intellect:

the poetry of the 16th-century Spanish mystic, St John of the Cross

Definition of mystic - Oxford Dictionaries (British & World English)

[Mindfrigg]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

I go with the English language. You?

Exactly.
You gave the precise definition. Any transcendent experience can be called mystic, by whatever method.
It's how much I get from it. Not what you think of it.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by mudfinger

Sleep well, Thump? Glad you made it to the party!

I'm in Austin, with family. I don't know if I will go back to California.

Originally Posted by mudfinger

The witches I know and respect could accurately be described as priestesses, but the very term itself is considered an insult, as it is the diminutive form of "priest", and implies, as I've been told, subjection to patriarchal values and social systems.

Understood. The point I was making there is that words have meanings and associations, so it looks like we're agreeing on the point.

Originally Posted by mudfinger

I can only answer subjectively about the value of prayer over a good endorphin rush after running; the former experience creates a more profound effect than the latter, and that additional profundity is directly related to my belief in the Diety to whom I pray. For me, it's better than running.

For me, when I'm in the groove on a long bike ride, my mind is in another place entirely, and it can be, though not necessarily is, a spiritual experience.

Originally Posted by mudfinger

As a corollary, having sex with some random skank is plenty fun, but the experiences I've had with women I love deeply are much more satisfying, even as memories. That's my consciousness interacting with an objective event, I think you'll agree.

You know I will. Sex with a woman I love is as exalted as it gets, to me. Sensitive improv between good musicians is a close second.

Originally Posted by mudfinger

I think we also both agree that all religions are human constructs, but I don't agree that religion=God. Your lack of belief in God doesn't mean that God doesn't exist.

Of course not. Also, I wasn't arguing that religion = god. I'm not the sharpest knife on the cutting board, but I'm not that dense.

[DHBucker]

Witch turned my dingo into a newt....

Monty Python's Holy Grail - Burn The Witch - YouTube

Monty Python's Holy Grail - Burn The Witch - YouTube

[mudfinger]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

I go with the English language. You?

I always make it a point to look into the entymology of a word, given the vicissitudes of whatever "modern usage" means.

From the link you posted:
Origin:

Middle English (in the sense 'mystical meaning'): from Old French mystique, or via Latin from Greek mustikos, from mustēs 'initiated person' from muein 'close the eyes or lips', also 'initiate'. The current sense of the noun dates from the late 17th century

[Skintaster]

I believe in the mechanical nature of life. I am at least open to the possibility that there is something beyond the mechanical nature of our existence. Some people can't accept anything without objective proof, and I respect that. I'm a sceptic myself. I step back from demanding proof when no one is trying to change my mind about things, and I do think that ritual, and even "magic" can have a positive beneficial effect on some people.

I consider myself pretty well read on some of these subjects, and even as someone that doesn't necessarily "believe" in much of this stuff, I have found certain basic things in many esoteric systems that have truly benefitted me as a person, and that have led to personal growth. To me, that's been very valuable.

Seem contradictory? Perhaps. But I use what works for me.

[mudfinger]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

I'm in Austin, with family. I don't know if I will go back to California.



Understood. The point I was making there is that words have meanings and associations, so it looks like we're agreeing on the point.



For me, when I'm in the groove on a long bike ride, my mind is in another place entirely, and it can be, though not necessarily is, a spiritual experience.



You know I will. Sex with a woman I love is as exalted as it gets, to me. Sensitive improv between good musicians is a close second.



Of course not. Also, I wasn't arguing that religion = god. I'm not the sharpest knife on the cutting board, but I'm not that dense.

Always seemed pretty damned sharp to me! Been waiting for you get your lazy ass up and join the fray all morning, brother.