Great Leader Mao and the Cultural Revolution

[Roberteaux]

Originally Posted by coldsteal2

Utopia is impossible with humans in charge for sure

+1000

Everything they touch turns into a racket. Politics, religion-- whatever.

--R

[bertzie]

Originally Posted by coldsteal2

So its kind of like the idea of Plato's Utopia


Utopia is impossible with humans in charge for sure

Correct.

Humans suck.

[CenCalPlayer]

Originally Posted by geochem1st

Thats one of the problems, its not scalable.



Marx called for communism to be realized in the industrial capitalist countries of Europe and the US as the next evolutionary step. That never happened, but the Lenin, Trotsky and Mao interpretations tried agrarian peasant societies to implement communism, decidedly not what Marx had intended, which is given for the main reason for the failures seen and why a totalitarian government was needed in the first place.

Not working too well in Europe either....nor here in the States....nor anywhere else it has or is being tried....the problem is Marxism and its dirivitives are contrary to human nature so therefore are doomed to fail.....

[Tone deaf]

Originally Posted by Nicole Rose

The problem is this:

Someone always comes along and hijacks it for their own ends as a means to power. Stalin, Mao, and many other figures in our history, both written and forgotten, have come along and said "Yes I believe as you do. If you follow my lead we will turn this world into a paradise, I will lead you to glory and peace."

As it relates to communism and collectivism it is the system and ideology, which are antithetical to human nature, that predetermine its failure, before it starts. Communism can't exist without the subjugation of the citizenry, the denial of basic human rights (free thought, speech, liberty, etc), the use of coercion to convert the unwilling and the use of force to invalidate the nonconvertible. Therefore, communism can't exist without leaders willing to deny human rights, subjugate his fellow countrymen and force the reticent to comply and kill the unwilling to comply. Anyone who would do these things is evil. Therefore, using the equivalence property, it is not possible to have communism that is not founded upon evil (not the religious satan kind of evil, I mean the abject disregard for one's fellow man and wonton infliction of great suffering).

Often the methods they choose to use describe what their so called paradise will look like. Beware the person who wishes to lead you, for he or she will often lead you right off a cliff.

And once they get into power, they often use that power to create a totalitarian state in which a differeing opinion is frowned upon, disagreeing with the gov is a crime, and dissent is treason.

They often soft-sell it to the masses, but more often they use class warfare and vilify minority groups as causes of national ills and to make them the foci of misguided hostility and nationalism. They don't 'often' use that power to create totalitarian states, they always do. The unsustainable can't be sustained without forced rule.

Look at Fidel Castro for one of our most recent examples of this. Him and Che geuvara, (sp?) started a revolution that was meant to free their people, but fidel obviously had other plans as him and Che ended up on the outs. Not that Che was in any way innocent, but if I'd been a cuban at the time, I would have wanted Che to have been the leader.

Castro and Guevara are/were Marxist Leninist scum. Argentinian Marxists aren't the nicest folks. I want to barf every time I see his f*ing face flying on a flag or poster as I go around Argentina. If they think living under the pseudo-Marxist Christina (just a criminal exploiting the citizenry's weakness for populist blather) is bad they might want to think about how sh*tty life would be with a real Marxist in office.

The only thing that makes Guevara better than Castro is that he died 45 years ago. If we could only have been so lucky with Castro. Guevara's life and times have been romantically recast in a light that doesn't properly illuminate the despotism that was at the root of his moral compass. One of his jobs, after the Cuban revolution was running the execution of political prisoners...oops, I mean "war criminals." The origins of his cause, however noble (allegedly, widespread poverty across Latin America) can never excuse the human rights abuses for which he is responsible, directly and indirectly.

The only kind of person I would ever follow in any kind of movement to change society for the better, would be someone who had peace in their hearts, and would never betray that peace. Ghandi, MLK. Pacifists.

Because one can tell the nature of a person, by the means by which they achieve their ends. If the tools they use to get to power are violence, blackmail, fraud, hate, and murder, then you can easily see what their "paradise" will look like once they achieve it.

As to your point earlier, by the time many of these saps pull their heads out of their asses and discover that it is a wolf in sheep's clothing, it is too late and the totalitarian phase of the operation sets in. I personally don't see Ghandi and MLK types as the prototypical chief executive. I think that their missions are better kept focused and that there are better types to run nations.

Unfortunately a lot of people are angry and will follow a man who stands up and shouts for change and promises a better future, without stopping to examine the consequences of the means by which this would be achieved.

I thought we were talking about Latin American examples, not North American examples...

[Malikon]

Originally Posted by Roberteaux

Thankya Sir, I will indeed look that book up.

Originally Posted by bertzie

True communism (the kind Karl Marx wrote about) actually worked well in pre-civilization. Tribes are essentially communist. Each person does what they're good at, and they work towards the common goal of continuing life of the tribe.

True communism would be akin to a single person that possessed every skill necessary for a completely self-sufficient life. Humans however, don't possess that ability. Think of true communism like a barter system. A person good at farming raises food. A good hunter hunts. The farmer gives vegetables to the hunter, the hunter gives meat to the farmer, they both end up with vegetables and meat. That is the kind of communism Karl Marx wrote about. From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.

True Marxist communism has never been achieved since the writing of the Communist Manifesto. Even Marxist socialism laid out in the manifesto has never been done. In the manifesto, Marx calls for a complete democratic government to run socialism. That has never been done. All self-declared socialist countries have been totalitarian governments, which is the polar opposite of what the manifesto says.

Originally Posted by geochem1st

Thats one of the problems, its not scalable.

Marx called for communism to be realized in the industrial capitalist countries of Europe and the US as the next evolutionary step. That never happened, but the Lenin, Trotsky and Mao interpretations tried agrarian peasant societies to implement communism, decidedly not what Marx had intended, which is given for the main reason for the failures seen and why a totalitarian government was needed in the first place.

Now,...this is more the type of discussion I'd hoped this thread would lead to.

It's why in the OP I said on paper Communism seems to make perfect sense, but then when you see it implemented, it's horrifying.

Interesting posts from both of you. Thanks.

[bertzie]

Originally Posted by Malikon

Thankya Sir, I will indeed look that book up.

Now,...this is more the type of discussion I'd hoped this thread would lead to.

It's why in the OP I said on paper Communism seems to make perfect sense, but then when you see it implemented, it's horrifying.

Interesting posts from both of you. Thanks.

If you get a chance, you should read the Communist Manifesto. That way you can be even more upset at the human species and their failings.

[SteveGangi]

Originally Posted by Tone deaf

As it relates to communism and collectivism it is the system and ideology, which are antithetical to human nature, that predetermine its failure, before it starts. Communism can't exist without the subjugation of the citizenry, the denial of basic human rights (free thought, speech, liberty, etc), the use of coercion to convert the unwilling and the use of force to invalidate the nonconvertible. Therefore, communism can't exist without leaders willing to deny human rights, subjugate his fellow countrymen and force the reticent to comply and kill the unwilling to comply. Anyone who would do these things is evil. ....

Castro and Guevara are/were Marxist Leninist scum.... The only thing that makes Guevara better than Castro is that he died 45 years ago. If we could only have been so lucky with Castro. ....

As to your point earlier, by the time many of these saps pull their heads out of their asses and discover that it is a wolf in sheep's clothing, it is too late and the totalitarian phase of the operation sets in.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by Tone deaf

As it relates to communism and collectivism it is the system and ideology, which are antithetical to human nature, that predetermine its failure, before it starts.

This. Greed is so deep in human nature I doubt that it can be expunged. Even animals have a sense of ownership.

[bertzie]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

This. Greed is so deep in human nature I doubt that it can be expunged. Even animals have a sense of ownership.

Human nature in a nutshell.

Mine Mine Mine for 10 minutes - YouTube

Mine Mine Mine for 10 minutes - YouTube

[Malikon]

Originally Posted by bertzie

If you get a chance, you should read the Communist Manifesto. That way you can be even more upset at the human species and their failings.

I've read it, I think I still have it around here somewhere.

My book collection is very schizo. Bible, Torah, Quran, the Manifesto,....(I keep meaning to pick up Mein Kampf), Plato, Socrates, Erich von Däniken, tons of Stephen King , ..... a little bit of everything really.

I'm not very discriminate when it comes to reading.




...I'll even read shampoo bottles while sitting on the crapper.


"So let me get this straight. Wash, lather, rinse,...then repeat if necessary? Is this a conspiracy to make me use more shampoo?"

[PraXis]

The only good commie is a dead commie.

[Tone deaf]

There is a difference between greed and personal self interest. The former is an unpleasant personality trait, the latter is an indispensable necessity for the perpetuation of mankind and the foundation of man's greatest societies.

[CenCalPlayer]

Originally Posted by Tone deaf

There is a difference between greed and personal self interest. The former is an unpleasant personality trait, the latter is an indispensable necessity for the perpetuation of mankind and the foundation of man's greatest societies.

Well said....

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by Tone deaf

There is a difference between greed and personal self interest. The former is an unpleasant personality trait, the latter is an indispensable necessity for the perpetuation of mankind and the foundation of man's greatest societies.

Understood. What I wrote still stands. Greeed is deep in our psychological makeup, probably as a result of its evolutionary benefits, and we can see it in animals, for instance, the way a carnivore guards a meal that it cannot finish.

[Tone deaf]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

Understood. What I wrote still stands. Greeed is deep in our psychological makeup, probably as a result of its evolutionary benefits, and we can see it in animals, for instance, the way a carnivore guards a meal that it cannot finish.

I wasn't disagreeing, just going to my forehand on one of my favorite subjects. In fact, widespread greed makes my fulfillment of my personal self interest easier...

[Tone deaf]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

probably as a result of its evolutionary benefits, and we can see it in animals, for instance, the way a carnivore guards a meal that it cannot finish.

I do that with a cupcake...

[geochem1st]

Originally Posted by CenCalPlayer

Not working too well in Europe either....nor here in the States....nor anywhere else it has or is being tried....the problem is Marxism and its dirivitives are contrary to human nature so therefore are doomed to fail.....

Communism and socialism are two very different things. And we don't have socialism here in the states. We have programs that provide social benefit, but it is not socialism.

Human nature is skewed by the environment humans are brought up in. We here in the west have been raised with the concept of property rights and greed for the last few millennia. There are tribes dating back further that do not have those concepts, even Native Americans. When the Europeans attempted to 'buy' land it was a foreign idea that they did not comprehend. So we must be careful with generalizations.... not you specifically Cal.

[335Reasons]

Originally Posted by PraXis

The only good commie is a dead commie.

... not good for your portfolio!

The other one, Tone deaf, wants Castro dead as well. Is there a moderator in this site or not?

[Scooter2112]

Originally Posted by geochem1st

There were a million pictures of that witch hunter to choose from. I chose Time because it had his name on the bottom of the pic, in case the younger ones here didn't recognize the fascist asshole.

He was the OWS of the Senate.

[Scooter2112]

Originally Posted by bertzie

If you get a chance, you should read the Communist Manifesto. That way you can be even more upset at the human species and their failings.

Wait....you're upset with humans for being human? Rather than humans that won't conform in lockstep with anti-human political systems that are only "effective" on paper and the idealistic mind of those who ignore human nature?

Grow up.

[Tone deaf]

Originally Posted by 335Reasons

... not good for your portfolio!

The other one, Tone deaf, wants Castro dead as well. Is there a moderator in this site or not?

Well, to be perfectly accurate, I didn't wish him dead, I lamented the fact that he is still alive. These are very different things. Also, I don't believe in the statutory employment of the death penalty, so I couldn't support the democide of folks merely for being commies. I think that it would be for the greater good to help them learn the error of their ways in re-education camps. Of course, as everyone knows, education and rigorous exercise go hand-in-hand, so forced labor would be a key part of the program.

[bertzie]

Originally Posted by Scooter2112

Wait....you're upset with humans for being human? Rather than humans that won't conform in lockstep with anti-human political systems that are only "effective" on paper and the idealistic mind of those who ignore human nature?

Grow up.

Humans claim to be an advanced species. Maybe they should put aside their animal instincts and start acting like it.

[Scooter2112]

Originally Posted by bertzie

Humans claim to be an advanced species. Maybe they should put aside their animal instincts and start acting like it.

Pfft. Humans can't even agree on what the word "greed" means.

If you can't effectively define it, how do you expect to also solve it, abolish it, or correct it?

Example: "Tax cuts have to be paid for...."

[bertzie]

Originally Posted by Scooter2112

Pfft. Humans can't even agree on what the word "greed" means.

If you can't effectively define it, how do you expect to also solve it, abolish it, or correct it?

Example: "Tax cuts have to be paid for...."

Which is why humans need to cut the whole "advanced species" crap out. The only thing that's changed in 10,000 years is technology.

[CenCalPlayer]

Originally Posted by geochem1st

Communism and socialism are two very different things. And we don't have socialism here in the states. We have programs that provide social benefit, but it is not socialism.

Human nature is skewed by the environment humans are brought up in. We here in the west have been raised with the concept of property rights and greed for the last few millennia. There are tribes dating back further that do not have those concepts, even Native Americans. When the Europeans attempted to 'buy' land it was a foreign idea that they did not comprehend. So we must be careful with generalizations.... not you specifically Cal.

I was referring to the dirivitives of Marxism generally more than anything else....socialized programs are derivitives, just not large scale implementations. Yes communism and socialism are different, however they still get back to the collectivism of Marx's ideals and centralized authority vested to government just in differing degrees. Yes, I agree about peoples and civilizations and how their communities work, however unless we have intentions of going back that direction, which I doubt, modern human desires are part of our equation and make up. Greed I don't think is the appropriate term, but rather wants or appetites are more appropriate. Greed is taking the act of wanting to extremes and is by social standards not a good thing. Like in all things there is an acceptable balance to fulfilling a want and rules of society are normally put in place to maintain that acceptable balance. One of our biggest problems is that we have quit maintaining the balance and gone off on crony capitalist pathways....not good for the market or society IMO>

[Caoimhin]

Professional Communist Hunter.

[Scooter2112]

Originally Posted by bertzie

Which is why humans need to cut the whole "advanced species" crap out. The only thing that's changed in 10,000 years is technology.

I'm confused as to how this makes Communism work.

Is this plan B or C?

[KSG_Standard]

Originally Posted by geochem1st

Communism and socialism are two very different things. And we don't have socialism here in the states. We have programs that provide social benefit, but it is not socialism.

Human nature is skewed by the environment humans are brought up in. We here in the west have been raised with the concept of property rights and greed for the last few millennia. There are tribes dating back further that do not have those concepts, even Native Americans. When the Europeans attempted to 'buy' land it was a foreign idea that they did not comprehend. So we must be careful with generalizations.... not you specifically Cal.

Socialism, in Marxist theory, is the first stage in the move away from Capitalism towards pure Communism.

There are other forms of Socialism as well. One of them is what Europeans call Social Democracy. Socialism isn't an on/off scenario...

Property rights have nothing to do with greed and have been considered by many to be one of our natural rights. Property rights are certainly a hallmark of the American psyche and are a big part of what our country was founded on.

[AleisterCrowley]

Originally Posted by KSG_Standard

Property rights have nothing to do with greed and have been considered by many to be one of our natural rights. Property rights are certainly a hallmark of the American psyche and are a big part of what our country was founded on.

Indeed it is, we showed those natives what private property is all about!

[PraXis]

They should have had guns instead of tomahawks.