Fender Strat, Crafted in China, new for $399... now bitch about gibson and maple. :o

[Gooner]

Originally Posted by colchar

The trend is starting to reverse. It is doing so slowly, but it is starting. There have been stories on the news here recently detailing how Canadian companies that had moved some, or all, of their production to China were now returning to Canada. They were doing so because of problems with the quality of the products coming out of China and, more importantly, because transportation costs were going up thus making it less economically viable to produce goods in China only to have them shipped here. With the cost of oil, and consequently gasoline, on an upward trend right now (and one that is supposed to continue for a while) those transportation costs are only going to go up. That might cause it to make more sense for companies to bring manufacturing back.

As I said, this is happening slowly but at least it is happening.

Sounds reasonable, I hope the trend continues. If the standard of living in China improves, the costs all go up and it becomes less viable.

[GuitarToneFreak]

Originally Posted by Thundergod

The Chinese wouldn't be as huge a deal as they are if it wasn't for European and American corporations giving them their business.

Now they have given them their business because the American people have become so disgustingly needful of the latest gizmo that they cannot keep up if they stay in America.

Think about it... you think the guy who lives under a bridge will be able to buy the latest iphone if they are made in the US? The answer is no. And sadly, bums and homeless guys have iphones and other stuff these days. The world, and the US on top of it, has become so unwilling to use quality stuff that lasts that companies have no option than to make stuff that doesn't last and sell it cheap.

Buy a great TV/car/fridge/washer that will last 10 years or more, made in the US or not. Then get your neighbor to do the same... if enough people do that (a million? 2 million? 3? 10?) then maybe China will slow down and companies will bring production back home (wherever it is you call home).

But at the end of the day, it's corporate greed that is responsible for the low prices of electronics, or anything for that matter. You can't blame that on the consumers, that goes right back to the fat cat who moved his company overseas, so he could maximize profits. So no, I don't think anybody would buy an American made PS3 for $1000 or so, but it's because they're made overseas so cheap that people wouldn't. It'd be hard to sell people on the idea of spending that much, because MIC have been so cheap that anything more seems outrageous. Like I said in another thread, it's the most evil, but smartest thing Corporate America has ever done, move production overseas and make shit for bone cheap. It's so clever, but so evil.

I'm not going to say we're not a materialistic society, because we are, there's a great number of societies that are - but it goes back to the guy up top, not the consumer.

[colchar]

Originally Posted by GuitarToneFreak

But at the end of the day, it's corporate greed that is responsible for the low prices of electronics, or anything for that matter. You can't blame that on the consumers, that goes right back to the fat cat who moved his company overseas, so he could maximize profits. So no, I don't think anybody would buy an American made PS3 for $1000 or so, but it's because they're made overseas so cheap that people wouldn't. It'd be hard to sell people on the idea of spending that much, because MIC have been so cheap that anything more seems outrageous. Like I said in another thread, it's the most evil, but smartest thing Corporate America has ever done, move production overseas and make shit for bone cheap. It's so clever, but so evil.

I'm not going to say we're not a materialistic society, because we are, there's a great number of societies that are - but it goes back to the guy up top, not the consumer.

There are some tech companies that manufacture in North America. Take RIM for example - as far as I remember their Blackberry devices aren't made in China but in Canada and Mexico. A lot of the parts might come from China but they are put together here.

I did my undergrad at the same university as Mike Lazardis who founded RIM. When they were establishing their headquarters they bought a corner of the university campus that wasn't being used for anything at the time. That school, the University of Waterloo, is one of the best computer, math, and engineering universities in the world and a degree from there is almost a prerequisite for a job at RIM. Thousands of people graduated from the university then went to work for RIM 500 yards from where they took classes. I cannot count the number of people I knew there who had Rim-jobs (yes, the pun is intended).

They also have all kinds of other facilities in the area. I lived in Waterloo for about ten years and was only a couple of blocks from their headquarters and one of the streets that went from their location to my place was lined down both sides with RIM buildings in which their devices were put together and I knew a ton of people who worked in those facilities.

If RIM can make their devices in Canada, and elsewhere in North America, and remain profitable and if companies like Godin and Larrivee can make outstanding guitars in Canada and the US while selling them for reasonable prices, I wonder why other companies cannot do the same? Are their business models screwed up enough that they need cheaper labour to increase profits? Are those corporations just so greedy that all they care about is increased profits (RIM was one of the most profitable companies in the world and didn't feel the need to farm out production to China)? I wonder why some companies can stay here, and not only be successful but also incredibly profitable, while others cannot?

[Gooner]

Originally Posted by colchar

If RIM can make their devices in Canada, and elsewhere in North America, and remain profitable and if companies like Godin and Larrivee can make outstanding guitars in Canada and the US while selling them for reasonable prices, I wonder why other companies cannot do the same? Are their business models screwed up enough that they need cheaper labour to increase profits? Are those corporations just so greedy that all they care about is increased profits (RIM was one of the most profitable companies in the world and didn't feel the need to farm out production to China)? I wonder why some companies can stay here, and not only be successful but also incredibly profitable, while others cannot?

I believe that it is profit driven, capitalism has no social conscience.

[jeff_farkas]

Originally Posted by Gooner

I believe that it is profit driven, capitalism has no social conscience.

And never has. From their point of view the only people they have to report to is the stock holders.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by Gooner

I do not believe that by not buying these goods from China you will ... improve the stance on human rights in that country.

Perhaps. Then again, perhaps not.

Without trying, we'll never know, right?

Myself, I'd argue that we, as consumers, wield more power than the nay-sayers in this thread seem to think. Even if I'm wrong, and we don't, I have less responsibility for their dreadful human-rights record than I would have otherwise.

[coldsteal2]

Man maybe we should start learning Mandarin

[Gooner]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

Perhaps. Then again, perhaps not.

Without trying, we'll never know, right?

Myself, I'd argue that we, as consumers, wield more power that the nay-sayers in this thread seem to think. Even if I'm wrong, and we don't, I have less responsibility for their dreadful human-rights record than I would have otherwise.

I agree, as I said I, do not buy Chinese goods unless there is no or little choice. I do think that protesting the Government is more effective. I believe that it is about corporate greed and it links in with many of the threads that appear on this forum about the disparity of wealth etc.

[colchar]

Originally Posted by Gooner

I believe that it is profit driven, capitalism has no social conscience.

But a company like RIM could make more profit having their devices made in the factory next to the one making iPhones.

[Thundergod]

Originally Posted by jeff_farkas

To be honest I've lived on the streets and never saw anyone with an IPhone. Ever. And if some did what's the issue?? If they used their money and not gov money what's your issue?? Homeless people owning IPhones destroy the economy.

Well yes when they are using the tax payer's money (not the govt's money) to pay for them.

I don't really have to elaborate on it, you just search for it and you'll get millions of examples of people who live on coupons and can't feed their kids but have internet and the latest LCD tv.

[colchar]

Originally Posted by Thundergod

Well yes when they are using the tax payer's money (not the govt's money)

The government's money is the taxpayer's money.

[Gooner]

Originally Posted by colchar

But a company like RIM could make more profit having their devices made in the factory next to the one making iPhones.

Yeah, OK, generalisation, but you know what I mean

[Thundergod]

Originally Posted by colchar

The government's money is the taxpayer's money.

No, it's the tax payer's money.







You know, we can go on and on about it... but still, I want to make it clear that the govt gets that money from the tax payer who has to pay more taxes every year so the lazy McStupids can have free stuff.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by Thundergod

No, it's the tax payer's money.







You know, we can go on and on about it... but still, I want to make it clear that the govt gets that money from the tax payer who has to pay more taxes every year so the lazy McStupids can have free stuff.

Hmm, so all homeless people are there because of stupidity?

This should be interesting to watch. Let me go fetch some coffee.

[colchar]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

Let me go fetch some coffee.

I gotta grab some dinner. Hopefully the thread will still be here when I get back.

[Kezia]

If it's about country of origin... my #1 is a Korean-Made Schecter, #2 is a Chinese-Made Epi, tied for #3 are Japanese made Edwards and Epiphone Elite. I've had a few USA-made guitar that didn't really do it for me. I couldn't care less about country of origin. If it's a good guitar, it's a good guitar.

[diceman]

Originally Posted by 0x00

Kimchi is a Korean dish, dummy.

And its damned good, too.

[The Refugee]

I didn't get the part about them making Fenders in China... they have Squiers made over seas, why not just put the Squier name on the new guitars?

Answer: every kid and their mother wants a "Fender", so they'll give them a "Fender".

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

I am actually fascinated by eastern culture in general, particularly Japan and China. The country China (as in the Chinese people - not the current government) have a long list of things they have invented; from the compass, gun powder to even writing paper! Their art, philosophy and also martial art styles are also fascinating!

I feel it is definitely a case of "hate the sin, not the sinner" - (the sin being the government if you see it that way) Chinese people have it almost in their DNA to make quality products - their higher spec guitars in particular, are most impressive.

Matt

[taypeng]

me thinks these chinese fenders are targeted at china itself. china is huge market. I think its a good move for Fender to market their stuff there. re-branding it from "squier" to "fender" is a good marketing move to make their products more appealing to the brand-conscious chinese...

i think most people already realise that but just saying you know. I don't think Fender is compromising its brand integrity. Its protecting it, by doing this they are effectively killing off the fake fenders in china.

[taypeng]

Originally Posted by Cpt Matt Sparrow

I am actually fascinated by eastern culture in general, particularly Japan and China. The country China (as in the Chinese people - not the current government) have a long list of things they have invented; from the compass, gun powder to even writing paper! Their art, philosophy and also martial art styles are also fascinating!

I feel it is definitely a case of "hate the sin, not the sinner" - (the sin being the government if you see it that way) Chinese people have it almost in their DNA to make quality products - their higher spec guitars in particular, are most impressive.

Matt

i beg to differ. most of that rich history, culture, innovative/inventive spirit died out after communist china. I'm sorry to say, right now its a nation of crooks, no business ethics... even the chinese do not trust chinese products. if a good product is being made there most likely the factory is being managed by non-chinese. I have not come across anyone who has done business in china and not been burnt/screwed over in some way. my folks who went over for holiday were happy to be still alive after crossing the streets because the cars don't give a d*mn about giving way to pedestrians.

sorry for the rant. in short, if you're looking for good, quality stuff i think you're better off looking elsewhere like Japan. The Japanese fortunately do not share that type of DNA. It is in their DNA to be hardworking and get stuff done right. not with the chinese, the chinese are just concerned about making money.

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

Originally Posted by taypeng

I beg to differ. most of that rich history, culture, innovative/inventive spirit died out after communist china.

You're not differing as I can see? I mentioned inventions that are several hundred years old, not relatively recent ones.

Originally Posted by taypeng

sorry for the rant. in short, if you're looking for good, quality stuff i think you're better off looking elsewhere like Japan.

Thank you for the advice, I have 21 guitars, 4 of which are Japanese, so I am familiar with their excellent quality. My favourite acoustic and electric guitars are being made on my home soil though - and like a lot of the yanks here, I enjoy supporting my country's economy too.

Originally Posted by taypeng

The Japanese fortunately do not share that type of DNA. It is in their DNA to be hardworking and get stuff done right. not with the chinese, the chinese are just concerned about making money.

If the Chinese are really only concerned about making money; then aren't the American companies such as Apple, Gibson and Fender (three examples that come to mind) just as guilty as they are exploiting this situation for their own gain? It really is a can of worms...

To end on a positive note, one of my favourite persons in the world, who is from China; the great man The Dalai Lama...

[JonMan94]

That is why I'm building a RG style made from USA and german parts in style of a classic strat (single coils and all)

For now on, my three main brands (once I acquire one of each) will be Ibanez, Carvin and Jackson. I just cant stand the big three (yeah, even PRS can suck a nut) anymore.

[Olds442]

Originally Posted by taypeng

me thinks these chinese fenders are targeted at china itself. china is huge market.

then why is the guitar for sale in the US?




Anyway. this thread is seriously devoid of pr0nz.

1961-62 USA strat.


MIJ 62 RI from 1985-86.

[taypeng]

Originally Posted by Cpt Matt Sparrow

You're not differing as I can see? I mentioned inventions that are several hundred years old, not relatively recent ones.


Thank you for the advice, I have 21 guitars, 4 of which are Japanese, so I am familiar with their excellent quality. My favourite acoustic and electric guitars are being made on my home soil though - and like a lot of the yanks here, I enjoy supporting my country's economy too.



If the Chinese are really only concerned about making money; then aren't the American companies such as Apple, Gibson and Fender (three examples that come to mind) just as guilty as they are exploiting this situation for their own gain? It really is a can of worms...

To end on a positive note, one of my favourite persons in the world, who is from China; the great man The Dalai Lama...

I've probably gone overboard with the words I used. I dont mean to say China is devoid of good. There are good and extraordinary Chinese but more than often I read news or hear real stories of the kinds of stuff the Chinese can resort to, for the sake of making money... By the way the Dalai is Tibetan.hUe is championing for tibets independence.

Anyway all this is a separate matter. Efficiency, practicality maybe in the Chinese DNA but not quality or integrity. Remember George m and his Chinese les Paul kits?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by Cpt Matt Sparrow

I am actually fascinated by eastern culture in general, particularly Japan and China. The country China (as in the Chinese people - not the current government) have a long list of things they have invented; from the compass, gun powder to even writing paper! Their art, philosophy and also martial art styles are also fascinating!

Not to mention the fact that they'd explored as far west as Madagascar by 1420, and but for a fluke of history would have greeted Vasco de Gama in the Atlantic, before he had a chance to round the Cape of Good Hope.

I feel it is definitely a case of "hate the sin, not the sinner" - (the sin being the government if you see it that way) Chinese people have it almost in their DNA to make quality products - their higher spec guitars in particular, are most impressive.

Matt

Yes, it's been pointed out several times already that this isn't a matter of racial dislike.

[mudfinger]

Uh, guys...perhaps the Dalai Lama isn't the best choice to represent the goodness of China, him being Tibetan and all?

EDIT: I see that Taypeng already mentioned that. Capt. Sparrow's remarks are otherwise totally right on.

[jeff_farkas]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

Hmm, so all homeless people are there because of stupidity?

This should be interesting to watch. Let me go fetch some coffee.

In my case I had addiction issues combined with mental health problems that led to my becoming homeless. Was I stupid?? I should have gotten the help I needed sooner but I'm well now and happy. Yes, I'm on disability but that option was available to me and I took it. But that's my case YMMV.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by jeff_farkas

In my case I had addiction issues combined with mental health problems that led to my becoming homeless. Was I stupid?? I should have gotten the help I needed sooner but I'm well now and happy. Yes, I'm on disability but that option was available to me and I took it. But that's my case YMMV.

I guess I figured someone else would answer that little bit of silliness. Addictions sure aren't smart, but I'm unsure whether that's what Thundergod had in mind.

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

Originally Posted by mudfinger

Uh, guys...perhaps the Dalai Lama isn't the best choice to represent the goodness of China, him being Tibetan and all?

EDIT: I see that Taypeng already mentioned that. Capt. Sparrow's remarks are otherwise totally right on.

His holiness was though born in China though wasn't he? I see him as a cross between Morpheus from the Matrix and Jean Luc Picard, (the thinking man's captain)...in short just awesome!

I just googled thinking "let's find a nice quote from the Dalai Lama about China I can include in the thread - and the first one that came up in the search was "China is built on lies and run by hypocrites"

So no not such a good inclusion; although since his holiness' presence in the thread, it has become more peaceful; so that's good!

Matt