Do You Have a "Template" For Song Structure?

[Skintaster]

Those of you that write your own songs... How do you plan it all out? Do you have some sort of format or template that you generally follow?

Something like "Verse, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Bridge..."

Or do you just play it by ear, so to speak? See what seems to work through trial and error on a song by song basis.

Thoughts?

[Thumpalumpacus]

I used to, for poppier stuff. Then I realized that writing was getting pretty boring, and I started fooling around with things like sticking the only "chorus" at the very end of the song (but foreshadowing it by opening the song with that progression, so you've had four minutes to forget it and then wham, it's baaaaack), or the old John Lee Hooker "some verses are eight bars, and some are ten" sort of thing.

The hard rock things I write are influenced by Zep, Rush, and Jeff Beck, so they're more scattershot.

But I can still write a little 3:30 gem. Now if only I could sell them!

eta: one project I've had in mind for years, but have not brought to fruition, is to write a song where there are no repeats at all. I'm finding it very difficult to write something like that which is compelling.

[GuitarToneFreak]

I'd say about 95% of my songs follow this template

Intro

Verse

Chorus

Verse

Chorus

Solo

Chorus

It's a simple formula, but it works. I do mix it up every now and then, but I follow that template almost always

[benjammin420]

I dont usually set out with any particular template, though the majority of the stuff I write ends up falling into similar patterns. I have a hard time intentionally writing songs, most of my stuff starts with one idea and I work it up as much as I can. Unless that initial idea is a catchy chorus, I have trouble writing those; I also wish I could come up with more and better bridges

[Thumpalumpacus]

A catchy chorus is king.

[benjammin420]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

A catchy chorus is king.

thats why all my songs suck

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by benjammin420

thats why all my songs suck

I hear you, man, I think Helen Keller would hate my music.

[dudu]

Originally Posted by GuitarToneFreak

I'd say about 95% of my songs follow this template
Intro
Verse
Chorus
Verse
Chorus
Solo
Chorus

It's a simple formula, but it works. I do mix it up every now and then, but I follow that template almost always

Bands employ a bag of tricks today, in the preproduction stage, in order to avoid that structure
and make a song more interesting. They use all kinds of twists & turns that are easily detectable
if you use an analytical approach to listening and don't let yourself carried away by the music.
If you write down all elements you can identify while listening to a song, it all becomes pretty obvious.
I, for one, think that a song is good if it keeps me from dissecting it like that.

Of course, this is harder with progressive rock/metal bands, but they have their patterns too

[Roberteaux]

Hey, no matter what sort of results you think you're getting, I don't even know how you guys are able to write any songs at all!

I just can't imagine it. Like, where does the music come from? How do guys write songs where the lyrics match the mood of the music being played? It seems like witchcraft to me, man!

Keep at it, though. Maybe one day I will have a CD with yer smilin' faces on it or somethin'!

--R

[dudu]

Originally Posted by Roberteaux

I just can't imagine it. Like, where does the music come from? How do guys write songs where the lyrics match the mood of the music being played? It seems like witchcraft to me, man!

I'm pretty much disabled when it comes to writing lyrics, I only did that
once (and was satisfied with what I had). The lyrics just came to me
out of the blue. That was the only exception, unfortunately. As for the
music, I'm usually hit by a riff that expresses a mood (either the one
I'm in at the time or one that I remember) and build around that.

Sometimes it's even better, I hear a part of the song in my head, with
all the instruments playing. I record that and then try to figure out how
to place it in a context.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by Roberteaux

Hey, no matter what sort of results you think you're getting, I don't even know how you guys are able to write any songs at all!

I just can't imagine it. Like, where does the music come from? How do guys write songs where the lyrics match the mood of the music being played? It seems like witchcraft to me, man!

Keep at it, though. Maybe one day I will have a CD with yer smilin' faces on it or somethin'!

--R

One of the best interviews I ever read on the matter was with Keef, who essentially said, "I don't write the song. If I'm doing it right, the song comes to me. I just stick my finger in the air, and be an antenna."

That really is it, for me. My worst songs are the ones I labor over, and "polish". My best songs are the ones which are written in a span of time barely longer than the song itself. And the best song I've ever written came to me without a guitar being nearby at all.

[dudu]

I'll use this opportunity to talk about something funny that happens to me.
Usually, when I'm just about to fall asleep, I hear all kinds of music in my
head. Most of the times I'm just too lazy to get out of bed and play it on
my guitar, thinking I'd remember it all the next day. I usually don't
Or it's a piece way too complicated for my skills, or it's a piano piece, or
whatever. Just last night I heard this amazing funky bass theme that I can
never hope to play right, so I stayed under the blanket and fell asleep.

My best guess is that our subconscious is doing a lot of work and moments
like these are when we can harness that.

[Roberteaux]

Originally Posted by dudu

My best guess is that our subconscious is doing a lot of work and moments like these are when we can harness that.

I suspect that you're correct in this guess of yours. I once had this dream in which I was hearing a jaunty, Big Band/Swing type number-- complete with very strange lyrics that talked all about horses. And there was a first trumpeter in there who kept on using the horn to make a whinnying sound, as if to imitate a horse, when soloing.

I can't remember anything much about this song, even though I'm telling you about it. In fact, the only reason I remember it at all was that I woke up all excited and then woke my then-girlfriend to tell her about the song, because the whole dream experience as so very strange. You might say that when I woke up, I sort of remembered the song-- but that now I only remember remembering it!

And so I guess it's kind of like you and Thump are saying... that maybe there's no real accounting for it and no real way to force a really good song into existence.

Even more mystifying to me than to have somebody compose a song with lyrics is the idea of a team, like Elton and Bernie, or Lennon and McCartney. Now how the hell did those guys do that?

There's something mighty mysterious about the whole business. I envy you guys.

--R

[Thumpalumpacus]

Well, songwriting teams are no different than band-teams -- the most valuable skill is listening.

[Roberteaux]

In keeping with the content of this thread, here's a short, interesting article that speaks of Bob Dylan's style of writing lyrics and the influence it had on John Lennon... I first stumbled across this thing a couple of years ago, but only just now remembered it!

Dylan, Lennon, and McCartney

--R

[Thumpalumpacus]

When I was in high school, I had a great art teacher who taught from Betty Edwards' seminal text, Drawing from the Right Side of the Brain. One of the keys lessons I took from it is: turn off your inner critic. When you're writing, don't think in terms of good or bad. That story, Rob, really, brought that back. Thanks.

[1970custom]

My writing partner and I always try to mix up arrangements, just to keep things interesting. Ususally what happens is we "finish" the song in standard arrangement-all the main parts, verse, chorus, bridge-then go back and rearrange/add/remove sections. We play sort of roots rock (Blue Rodeo, John Hiatt, etc), a genre not known for original arrangements, so we try to keep moving forward. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

When I write my own instumental stoner/sludge/post-metal songs, it's more of a free for all; I usually get a riff, lay some drums on the track and work from there. In that style, a guy is less bound by convention, I think. Then again, some of my songs have come out at 10-12 minutes, so I may need to trim the fat a little!

[benjammin420]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

When I was in high school, I had a great art teacher who taught from Betty Edwards' seminal text, Drawing from the Right Side of the Brain. One of the keys lessons I took from it is: turn off your inner critic. When you're writing, don't think in terms of good or bad. That story, Rob, really, brought that back. Thanks.

great advice, I discovered that on my own when I first started writing lyrics. I would try to compose lines in my head, and when I was satisfied, I would write it down. But it didnt usually amount to much, there would be more stuff that I discarded than I actually wrote down. Eventually I started writing every little idea down, then I would go over it and over it deciding if I liked it or not. I working that way I ended up coming up with pages and pages of stuff, most of it was crap, but there would be enough for a few verses and a chorus. Lots of times, going back through my notebooks, I would find one line that was discarded from the song I was working on at the time, that would then be turned into a new song of its own. Sometimes I would end up with more than one complete song from one writing session. Once you get your train of thought rolling, the mind can churn up all kinds of treasure. But if you labor over every little detail, you end up nowhere.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Exactly. The best thing for me was keeping a journal, and writing every day, even if it was only 100 words. I don't do that now, though I need to get back into it. But getting into the habit of letting it flow out without braking is vital, for me, when it comes to songwriting. If I were to rely on quality right out of the gate, I'd be lost.

Okay, I'm assed out this way, too, but it sure sounds better.

[Thermionik]

.
.
No template.
What comes out comes out.
No idea whence it comes or why it does.
Sometimes an idea comes out of nowhere and then gets developed or expanded on.

But a "template" - nope, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to restrictive for us crazies.....

[1970custom]

Letting it flow was the key for me. Anything and everything, play it, sing it, write it down, whatever. If I only played the good ideas, the strings would rust off my guitars.

[mudfinger]

I don't have a template, no. Each song suggests its own structure. Nothing really unusual about most of those structures tho.

I liked that story about Dylan, just playing with words.

[longan]

I normally write in the order of
verse
verse
verse
chorus.

But normally I arrange it as
Intro
verse
verse
chorus
Solo
verse
chorus
chorus

[ptate]

No structure to any of my writing, but I try to develop a soundscape or "story" from beginning to end with them; they're quite eclectic in that respect.

I usually visualise the music before I start to compose (might be a mountain scene or an enigmatic, long voyage etc. - Cheesy, but it works for me) and then let it go from there. The guitar and instruments are just ways of realising the feelings behind it all.

Bit "non-mathematical", but.....

[moodyedge]

Ive become very bored with any songs I write in my band, being trapped in verse chorus and bridge parts is dull. It has put me totally off wanting to write anything, just find myself trying to avoid stuff that resembles previous songs which is annoying.


Theres a riff or two then a few chords and they get bungled together at practice and played through again and again and make changes as we go. I can still be changing something weeks later, it seems to happen on its own and I just apply any change I happen to discover that seems to work better than what was there before.

[Fred61]

I try not to follow a template, but most of my songs have three verses and three choruses, however the order switches up. Sometimes I will go verse, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, solo, chorus (one of my favorites) or whatever.

I stick to threes though... its weird

Choruses are king though, gotta work on that

[Lurko]

ABACAB for the win in pop/rock music.

[Rich]

No real template per se although the songs do have verses and choruses and sometimes prechoruses but the prechorus might not appear until after we've already played though a verse and chorus once or twice. Sometimes there's some sort of bridge and maybe a guitar solo thrown in. How all those elements get put together largely depends on how the song seems to want to go rather than using some sort of outline that we would try to fit it into.

In my band, songs come about in a couple of ways.

1) One guy has something with all the parts stitched together with lyrics. It might remain intact or we might modify or add/subtract something after playing the song for a while depending on how it flows.

2) Riff-o-matic (my method). Someone comes up with a cool riff or a couple of them that work together. As a group, we work with those parts, come up with some more and string 'em together as they seem to work. These songs usually evolve more over time.

The bottom line is that our philosophy is that the song will work itself out over time. I don't know if that's a good way to do it or not, but it seems to work for us. Perhaps a more methodical approach might yield better results or at least get songs in final shape more quickly, but we're doing what we do for our own amusement.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by Rich

How all those elements get put together largely depends on how the song seems to want to go .... The bottom line is that our philosophy is that the song will work itself out over time.

[Skintaster]

I generally write by coming up with a riff/riffs, then try to apply them to a usable song structure. It doesn't always "fit" and set of specific rules, but I'll start by trying to lay those riffs in a "songlike" order, that I can manipulate as needed.

Often parts need to be changed to accommodate things like lyrics. I find that the most surprising part of the process is learning what NOT to include... Sometimes economy is needed, and good parts have to be cut.

For me though, the riff is king, and a good catchy chorus is really important. I find that's the case regardless of the style I'm trying to write in.