Do You Have a "Template" For Song Structure?

[bscenefilms]

I think whenever you improv, you are writing music. I learned a lot about the use of structure and patterns from my wife (who plays keyboards).

Look at this in terms of structure and repeated patterns:

YouTube - ‪Jazz Piano Tutorial - Little Sunflower‬‏

YouTube - ‪Jazz Piano Tutorial - Little Sunflower‬‏

It's an improv over a backing track but the guy explains the choices he makes.

[lunchbox]

No, I have no template.

If you do follow one (i.e. intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus, out) one of two things will happen:

1. All your songs will be boring and sound the same.

or...

2. You'll be hailed as a friggin genius for writing great pop songs, like The Beatles (early songs) or Nirvana.

Either way, you're playing and having a great time(?).

[Shred Astaire]

I try not to have a template....it keeps it more interesting. Though there are times where I feel i am writing similar songs based on the format and i decide to switch it up on the fly.

I tend to just write and arrange together in a way that makes the song interesting to me...and i hope it will be interesting for others. A lot of my songs end up with about 4-5 different parts....sometimes I cut it down, sometimes i leave it and just arrange.

Songwriting shouldn't be about how its supposed to go, it should be about how it feels and sounds to the writer.

[Skintaster]

Certain types of guitar based music seem to make use of a "set format". While it's probably not quite the same thing as writing a pop or rock song, blues players seem to do that a lot... I suppose having certain types of stylistic progressions lends itself to music where live improvisation is important.

How's that work? I' don't play or usually listen to the blues? I see people using terms like a "turnaround", and realize that it's a type of progression, but I have no idea what it means!

[bscenefilms]

Also, bear in mind that a lot of "Rock & Roll" is based off of the I-IV-V 12 bar blues (less common is the 8 bar pattern for this) pattern. A I-IV-V pattern in say the key of Amin with have the following notes:

A B C D E F G♯ A'

So the A is the I chord, the D is the IV and the E is the V.

Many songwriters use this pattern as the basis for their song. Listen to most rock and roll and it will follow the 12 bar pattern for most of the tune. An 8 bar example would be a song like

Key to the Highway

Key to the Highway

.

[mudfinger]

Originally Posted by Skintaster

Certain types of guitar based music seem to make use of a "set format". While it's probably not quite the same thing as writing a pop or rock song, blues players seem to do that a lot... I suppose having certain types of stylistic progressions lends itself to music where live improvisation is important.

How's that work? I' don't play or usually listen to the blues? I see people using terms like a "turnaround", and realize that it's a type of progression, but I have no idea what it means!

This is one of the things I was thinking about last night when I posted, but I'm not real sure how to articulate the thought. I like playing with the formal elements in my songs just like Dylan, McCartney and Lennon were playing with words in the story upthread, if that makes sense? Nothing so dramatic as their lyrical game, it's all about subtle things that subvert convention for me.

The turnaround is at the end of the 1/4/5 12 bar blues form; say you're playing in A, so D is the 4, and E is the 5. How you get from E back to A and the start of another 12 bars, that's the turnaround.

Here, Skin, check this out, a rough acoustic version of Crossroad Blues:

MP3 Player SoundClick

When I'm singing the lines "but nobody seem to know me, everybody pass me by", "I ask the Lord above for mercy, save me if you please", "you can still barrelhouse baby on the riverside", and "I'm standing at the crossroads, believe I'm sinking down"...those are all over the turnarounds.

If yall don't mind a couple of long-ass posts, I've got a tune with a 20 year history that would demonstrate alot of what we've been discussing in this thread, and if what I'm understanding what I've been reading from you guys, I think it'll validate what most of us are describing as our "process".

[EasyAce]

I don't plan anything out when writing blues material---unless I have something in my head suggesting an interesting way to shake up the basic blues forms (the blues isn't strictly the ol' I-IV-V, and God knows how often I love to play around even with that twelve-bar foundation). It depends on what a lyric (yep, I write them!) wants or what a theme line I might come up with (whether I keep it for my guitar or hand it to our keyboard player) seems to want.

I'm experimenting now with a thirteen-bar idea---I heard Mountain use a thirteen-bar verse for their version of "Stormy Monday" (which is probably the only version other than the T-Bone original I can stand to listen to now since all the takes based on the Bobby Bland arrangement have been beaten to death and back) and it kind of nudged me toward playing around with such an idea of my own. I'm even playing with the idea of making it a basic IV-IV-V chorus structure, though I could also try a I-I-V framework on it.

I've also played around with I-IV-V/IV-IV-V/I-I-V structures in eighteen-bar formats, a la the Delta and other rural bluesmen. There are a ton of ways to shake the blues up a bit without deviating from the blues . . .

[bscenefilms]

Another thing you might want to check out is this DVD from Donald Fagen:

Amazon.com: Donald Fagen - Concepts for Jazz/Rock Piano DVD: Donald Fagen, Happy Traum: Movies & TV

Amazon.com: Donald Fagen - Concepts for Jazz/Rock Piano DVD: Donald Fagen, Happy Traum: Movies & TV

He talks about how Chain Lightning started as a traditional 12 bar and how they deviated from that with the tune. Tune is here:

YouTube - ‪Chain Lightning by Steely Dan‬‏

YouTube - ‪Chain Lightning by Steely Dan‬‏

[EasyAce]

Originally Posted by bscenefilms

Also, bear in mind that a lot of "Rock & Roll" is based off of the I-IV-V 12 bar blues (less common is the 8 bar pattern for this) pattern. A I-IV-V pattern in say the key of Amin with have the following notes:

A B C D E F G♯ A'

So the A is the I chord, the D is the IV and the E is the V.

Many songwriters use this pattern as the basis for their song. Listen to most rock and roll and it will follow the 12 bar pattern for most of the tune. An 8 bar example would be a song like Key to the Highway.

Eight-bars are often treated like the red-headed stepchildren of the blues these days, but I love them . . .

Robert Johnson, "Come On In My Kitchen"

Robert Johnson, "Come On In My Kitchen"

Freddie King, "Someday After Awhile"

Freddie King, "Someday After Awhile"

Howlin' Wolf, "Sitting on Top of the World"

Howlin' Wolf, "Sitting on Top of the World"

And here's a great alternative twelve-bar number . . . note the chord variation in the I . . .

Hot Tuna, "Hesitation Blues"

Hot Tuna, "Hesitation Blues"

[Rankelson]

I remember playing Black dog,by Led Zep
And inversing the note progressions[playing it backwards]the chorus was a bit messy but the Intro/verse part was killing

[1970custom]

Originally Posted by Skintaster

Often parts need to be changed to accommodate things like lyrics. I find that the most surprising part of the process is learning what NOT to include... Sometimes economy is needed, and good parts have to be cut.

This was a hard lesson for me to grasp, but often it's true. As shallow as it seems, the "Don't bore us, get to the chorus!" philosophy is still highly relevant.

[EnjoGuitar]

For writing songs, I start with a lick. I envision the lick in my head, then work it out, slowly editing things that are trash and molding a masterpiece. Mind you I don't usually sit around and think of the licks, they just enter my head when they see fit.

I do that, then write an accompanying verse and bridge, and then make an intro and an outro(most of the time in mixed orders as it comes to me). I have the hardest time writing a solo, but as someone said, writing an intro and outro to the solo and improvising the middle usually yields solid results.

[mudfinger]

Ok, I'm gonna take Skin's "like" for my previous post as permission to write a novel! This is mostly about how songs reveal their structure to me over time, and also how long I'm willing to wait for inspiration to strike, which is a pretty long time.

1987 or 1988, I get a snippet of lyric while reflecting on a particularly nice childhood memory of a rose bush that was next to the house I was living on Beechwood in LA. Really just a vivid visual memory of the rosebush as it bathed in the light of the sunset, accompanied by a sense of wonder that I felt at that moment. I was pretty unhappy at that point in my life, so I was feeling a strong sense of nostalgia for my own lost innocence. Here's the snippet, which just came to me like a radio transmission:

"Roses on the vine, softly swaying in the sunset breeze, but when those thorns cut into your eyes, don't try and tell me that you can still see"

What I didn't realize at the time, but became totally obvious to me a couple years later, was that this lyric was a reference to Neil Young's "Love is a Rose", which was notably covered by Linda Rondstadt, with whom I was living at the time I had that experience with the rose bush. That's always kinda served as an example of how powerful relying on the subconscious/inspiration can be, and one of the reasons I'm content to just kinda wait for the words and music to just come to me; that's all my best stuff!

Over the next few months, I came up with 2 verses during the course of just playing over the chords to figure out how that bit of lyric wanted to fit into a song. The words mostly wrote themselves; the only bit of craft that I can recall applying to that part of the process was replicating the rhythmic pattern of the first verse in the rhythmic pattern of the second verse. Here they are (were):

"She said, I am yours and you are mine, he wept, and the tears fell into his wine, I guess, up until now I never realized, why the rain fell from his eyes"

"He left, in the middle of the night, while she slept, to fitful dreams of the morning light, it's the same old story it's the same old song, when she woke up that morning he was gone"

At that point, the song was complete enough to bring to the band and start "work" on the arrangement, which for me still consists of a very simple process: play the tune with conviction, and be ready to go wherever inspiration takes it. A couple months into that, one day, this came outta my mouth:

"How can you dream for tomorrow, when you're yesterday's headline? How can you see through the sorrow, now that love is blind? Kiss the roses on the vine"

That was the bridge, and the song now felt and sounded complete, and moving, and we were all going crazy over it. Naturally, about 2 weeks after that, Poison released "Every Rose has its Thorn", and my dreams of rock stardom were once again shattered. At that point, this song was arranged in such a way as to most closely resemble one of those sensitive singer-songwriter tunes that guys like Jackson Browne are into.

Years pass, and little things about the lyrics start to annoy me; for example, who is this crying dude, what is that all about? So, I start to play with the lyrics, by which I mean that I start thinking about them deeply, and how they all relate to each other as a narrative as well as a lyric. Basically, I keep asking myself, "What is this song actually about?" More years pass; the end of the chorus changes from "don't try and tell me that you can still see" to "don't try to tell me that you can still see".

At this point in my life, I'm making a living by backing up other acts, so the only time anyone but me ever hears this tune is at jam sessions and get-togethers. A couple of fellow musicians point out that the guitar figure in the verses is essentially Pink Floyd's "Seamus" from "Meddle", which is an obvious inspiration for me, having been deeply into the Floyd as a teenager, but the inspiration didn't amount to copyright infringement, so I kept the arrangement.

About 2 years ago...almost 3 now, I had a legit epiphany about how I wanted to spend the rest of my life, and what I really wanted to do with my music; up until that point, I had always sorta followed Clapton's idea of bringing the blues into other forms, especially rock and folk. But that was really not cutting it in terms of fulfilling my own sense of purpose, which has always been to play the blues. So...starting working up arrangements on all my favorite standards. Put a band together, and started the rehearsal process.

One night, while driving home, I heard it in my head, complete with melody: "Love is like roses, love is like roses, love is like roses, roses on the vine...love is like roses, love is like roses, love is like roses, roses on the vine, but when those thorns cut into your eyes, don't try to tell me that you can still see..." It absolutely did not fit with the arrangement that I'd been playing for 2 decades, but it was undeniable, that bit of lyric. I tried to incorporate it into the tune, but it was total fail every time, just flat wrong.

Then, one night when we were drinking, I was playing through the changes on "Stormy Monday", and something caught my ear; just a passing bit of lead guitar that evoked a connection in my puny mind with that melody I'd been hearing in my head. So, later on at home, I stripped Stormy Monday down to the chord changes, and the first time I played it through to the chorus, I knew. I mean, I knew. Still makes the hair on my arms stand up, just thinking about it.

So, a bit of time establishing the new arrangement in terms of how it all functioned over the course of the whole song, and I was finally satisfied that this song was done. Only took me 23 years.

Here's the final lyric:

"He said, I am yours and you are mine
She wept, and the tears fell into his wine
I guess, up until now I never realized why those tears fell from her eyes

Love is like roses, love is like roses, love is like roses, roses on the vine
Love is like roses, love is like roses, love is like roses, roses on the vine
But when those thorns cut into your eyes, don't try to tell me that you can still see.

He left, in the middle of the night
(as) She slept, to fitful dreams of the morning light
It's the same old story, it's the same old song, when she woke up that morning, he was gone

Love is like roses, love is like roses, love is like roses, roses on the vine
Love is like roses, love is like roses, love is like roses, roses on the vine
But when those thorns cut into your eyes, don't try to tell me that you can still see"Here's a recording of it, from the same session as the version of Crossroad Blues I posted upthread:

MP3 Player SoundClick

Now, there's still plenty of polishing left to do; that recording was done over the course of a couple hours purely to use as a demo for local venues, but the song is all there, and it does its thing; I posted it up on Soundclick to share with folks, and it somehow got up to #8 on SC's acoustic blues charts, and #55 on SC's blues charts.

At every step of the way, to the degree I just trusted my instincts and followed my inspiration, I was rewarded with something sweet, and it was only my own meddling with the song that kept it from being what it always was. The song barely resembles its original incarnation, in terms of overall feel, structure, and melody. The only aspect of this tune that didn't undergo some kind of change over the years was the key.

Wow...epic post, I wasn't kidding about writing a novel!

[Shred Astaire]

Originally Posted by EnjoGuitar

For writing songs, I start with a lick. I envision the lick in my head, then work it out, slowly editing things that are trash and molding a masterpiece.

I''m similar, but i never hear a lick in my head before i play it...i just play stuff and when I play something that inspires me, I play it again, and again and alter it til it sounds like what i want. Then i build the song around it....

[ptate]

I use the guitar to mimic other instruments (like wind, harp, violin, bells, classical nylon etc.) just to create the atmosphere I want (I prefer sticking to one guitar per track and making it "fit" my goals - just a "weirdyism" of mine). In this respect, the tune presents itself from the development of subconscious ideas structured around the processes used to "describe" and record the track....If that makes any sense at all???

In short, the guitar and other instruments drive the piece just by my manipulation of their capabilities. If there's an intro/verse/chorus, fair enough; if not, that's good too...!!

Peace.

[Roberteaux]

What a magnificent thread this one is! I would like it +10, were this to be allowed. Amazing... simply amazing.

From what I am gathering, there really is no one single direction from which one must necessarily approach songwriting-- that the routes and approaches are not necessarily formulaic, although various formulas may indeed be applied. This kind of figures, too... I mean, it's an art form, and therefore one can actually kinda do whatever the hell they want with it.

I also see that the lyrical aspect of a song is a thing that can happen in an instant (ala Bob Dylan) or that it might be the result of a very long, slow evolutionary process (ala mudfinger). I am still not sure how one might match emotive tonalites to lyrics, but suspect that it's just a matter of sussing things out. Seems to me that if one has a set of lyrics that are somehow evocative of a certain mood, that one can just go with chords, scales, and progressions that match that mood (or vice-verse). Still, the business of how this might have come to be is still very much a chicken vs. egg sort of affair... and I can actually imagine the whole thing coming together almost at once, vis-a-vis that snippet of "horse music" I referred to in an earlier post.

I was talking with my guitar instructor a few moments ago, and brought this thread up. He ended up telling me that when Paul McCartney first envisioned the song that turned into Yesterday, the original tune came to mind as he was nodding off to sleep. He snapped to, and then immediately wrote down the basic tune. But the lyrics he supplied at first went like this...

Scrambled eggs... I would like to eat some scrambled eggs...

...but that he was able to come up with the melancholic lyrics that matched the melody afterwards.

I am now also remembering an interview with David Bowie that I once read in Rolling Stone in which Bowie mentioned that he kept a small tape recorder on his nightstand, and would occasionally wake from some vivid dream and then supply himself with a memorial via the tape recorder. He never did mention if he ever hit paydirt using this method, though...

@mudfinger: your post was well worth reading. Thank you for contributing it!

GREAT THREAD, and thanks to all who contributed to it! I would also love to hear more from all the songwriters of this site!

--R

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by 1970custom

This was a hard lesson for me to grasp, but often it's true. As shallow as it seems, the "Don't bore us, get to the chorus!" philosophy is still highly relevant.

There's wisdom in that approach, but an alternative I like using is the idea of tension leading to release ... starting the song with the chorus progression, then going into three or four verses, letting the pot simmer a bit, so that when I do hit the chorus, the relief is palpable.

Oftentimes, especially with chart-toppers, the chorus comes around so often that the first time, it's like biting into a deliciously sweet cupcake ... the second you're happy to hear it again ... but by the fourth go-round, you're gagging.

There's no hard-and-fast rule for me, but I just try to make sure that the song is saying what I want thematically, that the music is supporting the lyric, and that there are a couple of hooks in it -- by "hooks" I don't mean your standard pop melody that gets stuck in your head, but any little feature that grabs the listener's ear and doesn't let go. I've used a double-hit on a woodblock before as a hook.

[Roberteaux]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

I've used a double-hit on a woodblock before as a hook.

Great post, Thump... but what is a "double-hit on a woodblock" and how does one execute the technique?

Thanks!

--R

[TheBeast54]

You Tube

You Tube

[Leendrix]

I write it as how ever it comes out. I don't write a riff and think "Yeah! That's going to come after the solo that comes before the breakdown, followed by chorus three!" I just play it by ear

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by Roberteaux

Great post, Thump... but what is a "double-hit on a woodblock" and how does one execute the technique?

Thanks!

--R

What I did was, in the last 8th-note of every bar during the verse on the song, I popped it twice -- two 16th-notes -- in order to come ahead of the beat for the next bar. It had the effect of tugging the groove, giving it an ebb-and-flow.

And thanks for the kind words. Just keep in mind that I've never managed to sell a song.

[BentheMighty]

Off the top of my head, I like to do a rhythm track where a solo should be first. If it's some little melody then go with it but I basically like to finish it first, then go back and solo away and work something out. If I don't I end up in wanksville, population me and don't wrap it up.

[Thermionik]

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mudfinger - great post - write that novel man.....
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[Skintaster]

Originally Posted by BentheMighty

Off the top of my head, I like to do a rhythm track where a solo should be first. If it's some little melody then go with it but I basically like to finish it first, then go back and solo away and work something out. If I don't I end up in wanksville, population me and don't wrap it up.

I usually do that too. It gives me a chance to listen to the song, and figure out what type of solo (If any) needs to go there. If I just wing it, the solo is generally too long, and doesn't fit right. Live, I'll do that, but when I'm writing a song, I like to be more economical with stuff like that... I'm talking about writing the basic structure of a song, a demo... Not necessarily a version that will be the final recorded version.

Later on, if I think a song needs "more", it's easy to go back and add it.

[Skintaster]

I was just recording a short demo of an idea, and this is a process I use a lot lately.

I have Propellerhead's "Record" daw installed on my mac. I use an audio interface, and plug straight in to my computer. Record has built in amp and effect models, so I can get a decent basic sound really easily.

I cue up a very simple drum pattern that I have saved, and just record all of the rhythm ideas I have for that one song... No pauses... I just go.

Once I have it recorded, I can go back and cut and paste the pieces I like in any order that works. It's a really easy way to knock out a basic scratch track for a new song idea, and then work from there.

The ease of rearranging the parts makes it a very valuable "song planning" tool for me.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by Skintaster

I was just recording a short demo of an idea, and this is a process I use a lot lately.

I have Propellerhead's "Record" daw installed on my mac. I use an audio interface, and plug straight in to my computer. Record has built in amp and effect models, so I can get a decent basic sound really easily.

I cue up a very simple drum pattern that I have saved, and just record all of the rhythm ideas I have for that one song... No pauses... I just go.

Once I have it recorded, I can go back and cut and paste the pieces I like in any order that works. It's a really easy way to knock out a basic scratch track for a new song idea, and then work from there.

The ease of rearranging the parts makes it a very valuable "song planning" tool for me.

My songwriting improved much when I had a multitrack.

[Skintaster]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

My songwriting improved much when I had a multitrack.

+1. Many years ago I used 4 tracks to record demos, and although they were nowhere as easy to use in regards to rearranging parts when compared to the digital tools we have now, they definitely helped my songwriting (Kinda started it really) along.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Exactly. Just having to plan it out, in accommodating the limitations of the format, forced me to pay attention to arranging in detail, which, in turn, forced me to think of those things when a cool progression or riff jumped out of my guitar.

A good song is a novel in miniature, and a good novelist uses plot as a tool.

[Tim Fezziwig]

No template. I wrote my first song in '92 and have been going strong ever since. I have around 30 songs that I'm happy with. They are all different. Some have had lyrics first. Some started as riffs.

One song that everyone usually likes is Jonathan E (Rollerball King). I was over my friends, Johnny Hates', house. There was always "friendly" competition between us. He had a new song. I lied and said I had a new song. He asked me to play it. I picked up my Custom and belted out RollerBall King. I wrote it as I went. I still play that song at gigs and people respond to it!

I had a poem Nighlife. The music came very easily. Mating the words to a REALLy heavy riff just made sense. Alot of times I have a theme that needs to be "fleshed" out. I just bang chords until the song comes. Most of my songs take around a half-hour to finish. Lyrics and all. Many songs come to me in the tub. I was hypnotized to be creative around water. It worked!

When I was in 10th grade my friends and I were going to play football. I went to Jimmy Nevlings' house. There was a bowling ball in the backyard. I 'pretended" to get it stuck on my thumb. I "worked" those "marks". I had them believing I was going to play with a bowling ball on my thumb. One day while taking a bath. That event came into my mind. I wrote my song He's the Man(With the Bowling Ball Hand) from start to finish while "dreaming" in the tub. We went to the shore the next day. I wrote all the lyrics on the drive home!

Writing songs is EASY. Open your third eye. I 'm not writing songs right now. I have a second album done that needs to be mixed. I have a third album written for my duo. I just need a day to record them. It will take us no more than 4 hours . We will play them live. Warts and all. That is the "Fezzwig" sound. I want to sound like an angry 15 year old. Alive and agitated. Buzzing with feedback and hormones.

I have two Rock operas that are written in my mind. One is about a Phillies pitcher from the 70's. Wayne Twitchell. With a name like that he deserves a whole song cycle. The other is called"Homunculus". A homunculus is a small man of human sperm and horse-sh@t. It will sound like The Melvins meets Sun Ra. Open your mind and let ALL the worlds' bullsh@t in. There are a million songs out there! Rock on!

Homunculus and Wayne Twitchell

[wreckingball]

OK, I saw this thread early this morning, and thanked Skinner for posting it up, but I had no damn time to post anything.
But... this exchange between Thump and Ben got my wheels turning...

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

A catchy chorus is king.

Originally Posted by benjammin420

thats why all my songs suck

Ehem, do you guys really think that the 'Sab Four' ever cared a wit about a catchy chorus?
'Bout the only song I can think of, off the top of my head, that has a reoccurring chorus from them is: 'Hole in the Sky' (correct me if I am wrong)

But seriously, those guys sold how many umpteen albums, and not one 'catchy chorus' is to be found, within the lot of those tunes. Think about that...

Don't take this the wrong way guys, it's intended to get your wheels turning, and to maybe shed a little light about 'alternative' writing methods.

Me? I'm a Bassist, craft-wise, but over the years, I have come up with more riffs on the six string, that were actually useful, then all the guitar players I have ever written with, (and I have played with some phenomenal guitarists) the thing is, a lot of those riffs were rejected by the guitarists, but not the manager/promoter, wonder why that is?...

EGO! that's what...

Anyway, as to Skinner's original thread question, no, I do not use a template at all.

I am a firm believer in Willie Nelson's philosophy...That is:
"There are all kinds of songs, just floating up in the air...All you have to do, is reach up and grab one"

Serves me right, anyway...